# (77) The Future of AI: With Sir Demis Hassabis & Dame Wendy Hall - YouTube
- Transcript ID: `hlla5ia8los`
- Source tier: `youtube_auto`
- Original language: `en_or_source_language_unlabeled`
- Translation status: `agent_translated_reviewed` (146/146 chunks)
- Original source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlLa5iA8lOs
- Raw evidence: `data/transcripts/youtube/HlLa5iA8lOs.json`
> 中文是派生翻译，英文是留存的源文本。中文未复核时，以英文和原始音视频为准。
## 00:00:05
**中文**
大家晚上好，欢迎参加本次 WCIT——信息技术行业敬业者公会——为纪念前任会长 Barney Gibbons 举办的讲座。首先要致以几项感谢。感谢汇丰创新银行一直以来对本讲座的大力支持。今年，我们请到了两位帮助塑造数字时代的杰出人物——公会会员……以及公会会员 Wendy Hall 女爵士。[清嗓声、笑声]
**English / Original**
Good evening everyone and welcome to this WCIT the worship company of information technology lecture in memory of pastmaster Barney Gibbons. Um firstly a couple of thanks. Thank you to HSBC Innovation Bank uh banking for being such great supporters of this uh lecture. And this year we are we have two extraordinary figures who have helped shape the digital age liverman >> and liver [clears throat] dewendy hall [laughter]
## 00:00:47
**中文**
他们也是我们的新会员。热烈欢迎二位。>> 很高兴来到这里，谢谢。>> 我一直在想该如何开场；我看过许多关于 Demis 和 Wendy 的视频，里面总要把他们的整份履历念一遍，于是我问 Gemini 先生：怎样定义 Demis 最合适？[笑声] Demis，要是这里有什么遗漏，那我就……>> 好吧，那可不能怪我。
**English / Original**
our new members. You are both very welcome. >> Great to be here. Thank you. >> So, I was thinking about how I start this and every video of >> both Demis and um and Wendy have uh their whole CD read out and I asked Mr. Gemini what's the best definition for [laughter] for Dennis. >> So, Dennis, if anything's a miss here, then uh I would um >> Okay. I'm not to bl I'm not to blame.
## 00:01:21
**中文**
Demis Hassabis 爵士是 Google DeepMind 的联合创始人兼首席执行官；在我看来，那里是全球领先的研究实验室之一。让我尤其振奋的是，它就在英国。你们的使命是推动 AI 进步，并将其用于解决重大的科学与社会挑战。他还制作过一款名为《主题公园》的电子游戏，把 AI 与经济学结合起来，卖出了 1500 万份。而那甚至是在你上学之前。[笑声] 至于大学毕业后做过的事情，我就不一一列举了，因为清单实在太长。
**English / Original**
So, Sir Dennis Hasselus, co-founder and CEO of Google Deep Mine and in my opinion one of the world's leading research labs. I'm particularly excited as well that it's in this country and uh your mission is to advance AI and to apply it to major scientific and social uh uh challenges. And he built a video game called theme park which combined AI with economics and you sold 15 million copies. And that's before you even went to school [laughter] after your university which I'm not going to regail because it's uh it's a
## 00:02:01
**中文**
你打造了 AlphaGo，击败了围棋世界冠军；又打造了 AlphaFold，彻底改变了蛋白质结构预测。你横跨多个领域，兼具计算机科学家、神经科学家、企业家和前电子游戏设计师等身份，并将多个领域的洞见带入 AI 研究。我们非常高兴邀请到你，Demis 爵士，谢谢。Wendy Hall 女爵士则是英国最杰出的计算机科学家之一，也是全球网络科学的先驱。
**English / Original**
very long list of things you did. Uh you built Alph Go and defeated the world champion uh Go player and alpha fold which revolutionized protein structure prediction. You are multi-dommain. You combine being a computer scientist, a neuroscientist, an entrepreneur, a former video game designer, uh, and you bring insights in multiple fields in AI research and we are very pleased to have you here, Sadis. Thank you. D Wendy Hall, one of Britain's most distinguished computer scientists, a global pioneer in web science,
## 00:02:41
**中文**
网络科学是一门研究网络如何塑造社会、社会又如何反过来塑造网络的跨学科领域。她是南安普顿大学计算机科学皇家教授，也是最早对多媒体超媒体系统开展重要研究的学者之一。她与 Tim Berners-Lee 爵士共同创立并领导 Web Science Trust——Tim 爵士也是这里的荣誉会员。>> 我知道。>> 是的，我们都很熟悉他。[笑声] 该组织致力于增进人们对万维网及其社会影响的理解。她还是南安普顿大学首位女性工程学教授，并曾任……
**English / Original**
cross-disciplinary study on how web shapes society and vice versa. Regious professor of computer science at the University of Southampton and one of the first researchers to undertake major work in multimedia hyperdia systems. a founding leader of the web science trust along with sir Tim Bernersley who's al actually an honorary member here >> I know >> yes we both know well [laughter] >> to advance the understanding [snorts] of the worldwide web and its social impact the first woman to become professor of engineering in Southampton and a former
## 00:03:22
**中文**
英国计算机学会（BCS）及计算机协会（ACM）主席。你在 AI、互联网治理、数据政策与数字伦理领域享有国际声誉，并一直帮助政府和机构思考技术对社会的影响。Wendy 女爵士，欢迎你。
**English / Original**
president of the BCS and the ACM which is association of computer machinery you are an internationally respected voice on AI, internet governance [snorts] and data policy and digital ethics and you are helping shape governments and institution to think about how technology impacts society. Dean Wendy, you are very welcome.
## 00:03:47
**中文**
>> 非常感谢。这也引出了我担任本公会会长这一年所选的主题：社区。简单解释一下，我之所以选择这个主题，是因为我想理解 AI 和技术将如何影响我们的社区、人民与产业；这也涉及本组织的四大支柱：慈善、产业、教育和联谊。
**English / Original**
>> Thank you very much. Which leads me to my theme in my year of mastership of the Wville company which is community. And if I say a couple of words on that, I chose the theme because I was trying to understand how AI and technology are going to impact our communities, our people, our industry, which touches the four pillars of this organization, which are charity, industry, education, and fellowship.
## 00:04:21
**中文**
因此，今天我的第一个问题想请教 Wendy 女爵士，主题是技能与 AI 素养。距离你 2017 年的评估报告已近十年，如今一项严肃的国家 AI 战略，从学校、大学、中期职业发展到全民再培训，究竟应该是什么样？英国是否仍然忽视或误判了这项技能挑战？
**English / Original**
And so today I'm going to pose my first question on skills and AI literacy to you de Mendy uh nearly uh a decade after your 2017 review. What does a serious national AI strategy look like now from schools to university to mid-careers to reskilling our people? And I was just wondering, is the UK still missing or misreading this skills challenge?
## 00:04:53
**中文**
>> 哦，这其实是三个问题合在一起。我真不敢相信已经快十年了。我们当时做那项工作时 Demis 也在场。我本想请他与我共同主持，可他已经忙得不可开交。你还记得吗？>> 记得。[笑声] 我们尽力提供了意见。>> 的确如此。但他没有共同主持，不过这也完全可以理解，他当时正在建设 DeepMind。[笑声] 他正亲身实践自己的梦想。遗憾的是，我的回答不太乐观。英国当年做得很好；我喜欢说我们是第一个制定国家战略的国家——其实加拿大比我们早了一步，不过我认为……
**English / Original**
>> Oh, well, that's three questions in one. I can't believe it's 10 years. Uh Deus was there when we when we did that. So, I wanted to co-chair it with him, but he was already too busy. Do you remember? >> Yes, I remember. [laughter] We we tried to input into it. >> You did. You did. Right. But he wouldn't co-chair it. So, but anyway, that's fair enough. He was building deep mind. Um so [laughter] he was living it living the dream. So um and and unfortunately my answers aren't very positive. Uh the UK did very well. In fact we were I like to say we were the first to develop a national strategy. In fact Canada did beat us to it but I
## 00:05:35
**中文**
我们的战略更广为人知。2017 年我们完成了 Hall—Pesenti 报告，随后成立了人工智能办公室和 AI 委员会；国家战略正是在此基础上形成的，并于 2021 年疫情期间发展成形，我还记得当时参加的所有电话会议。我曾担任过一段时间的 AI 技能事务负责人；如今这一职位已经不存在，AI 委员会也已撤销，也没有独立机构监督科学、创新与技术部 AI 部门约 400 名工作人员的工作。
**English / Original**
think ours is better known. And we actually we did the whole percenting report was 2017 and then the national strategy was developed by the what we set up out of that the office for AI and the AI council and the national strategy evolved from that in 21 during the covid years. I remember all the calls um and I was AI skills champion for a while that there is no AI skills champion now that the um there's no AI council there is no independent body overseeing what the 400 people in DC do in the AI unit
## 00:06:15
**中文**
我认为英国错失了机会。我走访世界各地、与各国政府会面时发现，许多国家采纳了我们的战略，不少还直接仿效。你能在其他国家的战略里看到其中的元素，甚至原文措辞。例如，新加坡沿用了我们的路线图，却执行得更好。作为一个小岛国，它在 AI 发展方面正超越我们，而且其表现远超自身规模。在排行榜上也正赶上并超过我们。格局很清楚：美国、中国……当时英国排第三。
**English / Original**
and I think I think the UK's loses a trick in that many many countries and I traveled the world meeting governments around the world picked up on our strategy. Many copied it. You can see elements of it, words of it in other countries strategies, you know, and Singapore, for example, followed our playbook and did it better. So, they're now overtaking us in the league of um developing AI for a tiny island. and they back hugely above their weight and um they're overtaking us in the league tables of you know it's very clear it's US China and China we were then third in
## 00:06:55
**中文**
但在 AI 战略与应用的排行榜上，我们已经下滑。新加坡做得极其出色，其他国家也在推进。英国目前仍有做得好的方面，稍后讨论中可以再谈；但技能这一环非常零散、参差不齐。
**English / Original**
the tables of um AI um strategies and and um adoption we've slipped and Singap and Singapore took really have done it incredibly well um and others countries are doing it too ours ours now we do well And we can talk about later the things we are doing well. Um it will come up later in the discussion. But the skills piece is very very patchy.
## 00:07:23
**中文**
遗憾的是，Hall—Pesenti 评估提出了若干建议，其中硕士和博士培养方面的建议都得到推进，但针对学校的工作非常少。学校得到的 AI 指导寥寥无几，而且相关举措往往以相当碎片化的方式出现。因此，我认为英国目前并没有对 AI 技能进行统筹监督。
**English / Original**
Unfortunately there has there were several things came out of the whole percent review. All those recommendations were taken forward MSC's PhDs very little for schools. There's very little guidance for schools on AI. and you know that it you see things coming out in a quite a fragmented way. So it does but there is no I don't think there's any oversight of AI skills in this country at the moment.
## 00:07:53
**中文**
>> 很抱歉这么说，但事实如此。>> Demis，你怎么看？>> 我可能会提出更加激进的主张。我赞同 Wendy 的看法。英国在 2017 年取得了一个很有意思的先发优势，但 AI 领域的十年相当于大多数行业的一百年，甚至两百年、上千年，因此已经发生了巨变。我认为我们当时做得不错，也记得我们确实资助了部分硕士项目。>> 没错。>> 这确实很有帮助。今天伦敦和英国在初创企业等方面表现很好；我们曾试图以 DeepMind 为锚点，把大量人才吸引到这里。
**English / Original**
>> Sorry to say that but it's true. >> How about you Dennis? What's your view on that? >> Yeah well um I'd probably suggest something much more radical. So um I would agree I agree with Wendy. had an interesting head start in 2017 but you know 10 years in AI is like a century in most industries right or maybe two you know maybe a millennia so um a lot has changed I think we did a good job I think I remember that actually we sponsored some of these masters did absolutely and I think that helped a lot actually we see today um London and the UK is doing really well in things like uh startups and I think we tried to anchor that at with deep mind and brought a lot of talent into the tree
## 00:08:34
**中文**
十年后的今天，其中很多人又创办、孵化出其他公司，这非常令人欣喜。我们还需要做得更多，稍后大概会谈到。但具体说到技能培养和学校，我完全赞同 Wendy：现在必须下沉到中学，甚至小学阶段。可以说木已成舟——孩子们已经在闲暇时间和家庭作业中使用大语言模型与聊天机器人，但做法非常缺乏系统性。政府政策和教育系统似乎抱着“真希望它自己消失”的心态，可它不会消失。
**English / Original**
and then now 10 years later that a lot of those people are now spinning out other things and this is great to see. Um we need to do more of that. I'm sure we'll come to that discussion later, but specifically skilling and schools, I do I absolutely agree with Wendy. Now, we need to look to the to the to the secondary school level, maybe even the primary school level. The the the the horse has bolted in the sense they're all using the LLMs and chat bots in their spare time and and for homework and things like that, but it's very unsistatic and it's a bit like I feel like government policies and education systems a bit like, oh, I wish that would go away, but but it's it's not. we
## 00:09:10
**中文**
我们必须积极面对，帮助教师、学校、家长和学生弄清怎样真正获得其益处，而不只是像现在这样使用。以我自己的孩子为例，他们可能只是借它近乎作弊地完成作业，或走捷径。我们知道，这会导致传统技能的缺失，更不用说日后的 AI 与计算机技能。但我们眼前也有机会。Wendy，也许现在该由你再写一份新评估报告了。若让我为此提供意见，我会建议把课堂“翻转”过来。
**English / Original**
we're going to have to lean into it and and help teachers and schools and parents and students work out or how do we get the benefits out of it, not just probably the way that people are using it now and kids using now and I see my kids, you know, will just help help them almost cheat on their homework or shortcut things. And we know that that will result in deficit of skills, traditional skills, let alone AI and computer skills later on. But I think we got an opportunity here. Maybe it's time for a new review for you to write, Wendy. This is why I would if I was going to input into this is what I would suggest is we need to invert the classroom in my opinion. So I would lean
## 00:09:46
**中文**
如果由我负责教育，我会主张学校课堂应当专注于人际技能、项目、创业精神、创造力和判断力——这些都是五年、十年后 AGI 到来时可能十分重要的能力。我们稍后还会讨论 AGI；即使只按今天 AI 的趋势外推，届时仍会有 AI 擅长的事情，也会有需要人类判断、品位等能力的事情。然而，学校今天并不教授这些。
**English / Original**
into a this is what I would do if I was in charge of education. I would say school in school should be about um people skills, projects, entrepreneurialism, creativity, judgment, all the things that you might expect the skills to be important in 5 10 years time when AGI's arrived. I know we're going to debate about AGI, but even just extrapolation of today's AI, there'll be things AI can do well and then there'll be things that will need human judgment, taste, all of these things. But these are not taught in schools today.
## 00:10:16
**中文**
>> 不过——我正要谈这一点。我认为课堂内应以人与人的接触为中心：怎样组织人们协作完成项目，类似蒙台梭利学校但更进一步；或者借鉴牛津、剑桥等顶尖大学的个别辅导，把它带进普通课堂。课堂外才进行基础知识的重复学习，并由个性化 AI 辅助，根据每名学生的进度和确切需求量身调整。
**English / Original**
>> But but so I'll come to that. So the school so I think in class it should be about human human contact. How do you organize groups of people into projects like a Montyurus school but plus+ um or maybe you get at like Oxbridge and places like these sort of the top universities these kind of individual um supervisions right but you bring that into the classroom out of classroom is where you do the rote learning that would be my opinion aided by personalized AI that basically tailors the rote learning to the speed and the exact personalized to the exact speed of the student and what they need to do.
## 00:10:52
**中文**
目前让所有人在课堂里接受“一刀切”的基础训练，本来就很荒唐。由于必须照顾平均水平，这种方式行不通。落后的孩子怎么办？超前的孩子又怎么办？两边都只能碰运气。有了 AI，课程可以真正个性化，让每个人得到恰好适合自己的内容；学校里则全部围绕项目展开。我个人认为教师会喜欢这样。此外，可以由世界级、近乎明星般而且真正擅长讲授的教师负责授课。为什么要期望每一所学校的每位教师、每位讲师都同样出色地讲同一门课？那只是……
**English / Original**
It's crazy that we do a ones fits all sizefits-all in class anyway on rope learning. Doesn't work because you you have to cater to the average. What about the kids that are behind or the kids that are ahead? Good luck on both sides. So here with AI, you can actually personalize it so everyone gets exactly the tailored uh curriculum that they need. And then in school, it's all about projects. I think teachers would love that personally. And then you could have world-class teachers that are like kind of almost like superstars that do the lecturing and they're really good. You know, why do we expect every school teacher, every lecturer to be amazing at lecturing the same course? That's just
## 00:11:27
**中文**
大量完全重复的劳动。
**English / Original**
completely redundant amount of work.
## 00:11:29
**中文**
我与教师朋友交谈时发现，他们每个人都要教 GCSE 数学，还得各自制作一套幻灯片。为什么还要这样？本应只制作一套高质量内容。然后，远程学习可在家中由 AI 协助，按照个人节奏完成。这就是我的做法。不过我不确定哪个国家会先行动；在我看来，可能是新加坡或阿联酋。
**English / Original**
When I have when I talk to teacher friends of mine, you know, and they have to come, each of them has to teach GCSE maths and then bring create their own slide decks. Why are we in that world? It should just be one. And and then it's not then the remote learning you do at your own speed at home with the help of AI. That's that's what I would do. But I don't I don't know if the countries somewhere like Singapore will do this in my opinion or UAE.
## 00:11:52
**中文**
我可以顺着这个话题说吗？因为你说的几乎每一点我都赞同。不过，基础学习不一定必须在家完成，因为这方面并不平等，很多孩子在家根本没有条件。我们必须对此保持敏感。我绝对赞成利用 AI 终结“一刀切”：一位教师面对 30 名各不相同的学生。如果孩子们已掌握基础内容、能够理解教师接下来要讲的东西，教师就能教得好得多——至于基础学习是在家、学校还是其他地方完成，并不重要。
**English / Original**
Can I riff off riff off of that because I agree with almost everything you've said there? I think the rope learning doesn't have to be done at home and some we have a there's not there's no equality around this. There's a lot of kids can't do this at home, right? And um we have to be uh I definitely agree that the that we we can use AI to stop the one-sizefits-all. One teacher, 30 pupils, they're all different. Teachers can teach much better if if the children are receptive to what they're going to say and already done the basic stuff, whether it's home or school or wherever.
## 00:12:25
**中文**
事实上，我不知道是否告诉过你：我在 1984 年写下了自己的第一段 AI 代码，用 Prolog 在 BBC Micro 计算机上构建智能辅导系统。[笑声] 你会明白这意味着什么——它甚至称不上概念验证，只是大学导师给我的一个想法。但我一直坚信，我们可以利用计算技术，以及如今的 AI，为孩子们开发个性化系统与辅导系统，帮助每个人达到大致相同的水平。不过，要真正做到这一点，需要政府作出巨大的投入。
**English / Original**
And I I've always been in fact my first I don't know if you have ever told you this my first piece of AI code I wrote in 1984 to build an intelligent tutoring system on a BBC micro in prologue. [laughter] You'll understand what that means just not even proof of concept just an idea right that I got from my tutor at university. But um I've always been in I've always believed passionately that we we can use computing and now AI to develop personalized uh systems tutoring systems for kids that will help everybody get to the same sort of level but that takes a huge commitment from government to make that
## 00:13:05
**中文**
我非常愿意为此提供帮助。>> 再往前一步说到大学：计算机科学学位现在是否已变得相当多余？>> 当然不是。[吸气声] 当然不是。恰恰相反，必须更加重视 STEM 和计算机科学。无论如何变化，都可以把编程未来的形态理解为一种更高级的编程语言：我们曾使用机器码，后来有 C，再后来是 Python，如今也许会变成英语。这完全没问题。你仍然需要懂得怎样设计系统架构。
**English / Original**
happen and uh I'd love to yeah to help do that um >> and then and then taking the step one uh one step forward going to university is it now become come pretty redundant that we have a computer science degree because of course not at all. [gasps] >> Of course not. You exactly I mean you you you absolutely needed to lean into STEM and computer science because no matter it's just a higher level programming language is the way you can think about what programming is going to become. You know we used to program in m in machine code then there was C then there's Python and now it's going to be perhaps it's going to be English. But that's fine. Like you're still going to need to know about architecting things
## 00:13:45
**中文**
还需要掌握最佳的软件工程实践。理解深层技术的人使用这些工具时，效率会比缺乏技术知识的人高出十倍。>> 因此，我们当然需要专业人才去应用 AI，但也需要让 AI 教育覆盖所有学科。南安普顿大学正在做的一件事——我知道其他大学也有类似举措——是为所有学生开发一套“AI 驾照”。顺便宣传一下：今年十月入学的学生和教职工都可以使用它。可以把它想成《公路法规》，主要帮助非理工科学生……
**English / Original**
and uh software best software engineering practices. Those people who understand the the deep technical, they'll be able to use these tools 10 times more effectively than people that don't have that technical knowledge. >> So absolutely we need people to apply, but we also need AI across the board. So things we're doing at Southampton, I know other universities similar. We we've actually developing something called an AI driving license for um all students who arrive in the university next. This good plug but others um arrive in the university in October will be this will be available to them and staff and think of it like your highway code you know this is for non-science
## 00:14:23
**中文**
迅速掌握所需知识。
**English / Original**
students really to get them up to speed.
## 00:14:25
**中文**
当然，有些人已经在自行使用 AI，但这套课程会帮助他们掌握怎样使用 AI。我们也制定了教育场景下的 AI 使用政策。此外，我们给自己设定了一项目标：到下一学年，大学里的每个学科、每个学位项目都要开设一门针对本专业定制的 AI 模块，无论是历史、心理学、地理、物理还是其他专业。每一门都要定制。顺便说，这是一项艰巨任务，但这正是我们给自己设定的目标。
**English / Original**
Some of them will already be doing it of course with their own but um to get them up to speed how they can use AI. We have a policy on how to use AI in education. And we have also set ourselves a target that by next academic year, every discipline, every degree in the university, there'll be a module on AI customized to that, whether it's history, psychology, geography, physics, whatever. Customized. That's a huge task, by the way. But that's what we've set ourselves.
## 00:14:54
**中文**
>> 想必你们也必须调整课程体系。>> 我正想这么说。STEM 和计算机科学仍然需要教授，这种训练依然很有价值，但课程内容必须改变；未来应当学习的东西可能截然不同。>> 完全正确。不知道你是否听过 Mike Wooldridge 最近谈论计算机科学教育将如何改变。AI 一直是计算机科学的一部分；我们很多年来都在把 AI 与计算机科学一起教授。如今，我们既设有计算机科学专业，也设有 AI 专业，很多大学也已开设 AI 学位。
**English / Original**
>> And presumably, you're going to have to tweak the uh curriculum as well. I was just going to say you so I think you need to teach STEM and computer science and continue that's very valuable training but the curriculum has to change to you know there might be very different things that one should study >> absolutely well I mean if you talk I don't I don't if you heard Mike Waldridge talk recently about the way it's going to change the computer science computer science AI taught as a part of computer science my I mean we do an AI degree a lot of universities are already um we've taught computer science with AI for a long time, but we now have a set. We have computer science and we
## 00:15:30
**中文**
我同样热衷于让非理工科学生了解 AI。>> 尤其是其风险及其他社会影响，想必这些也必须纳入课程。>> 是的。>> 哦，抱歉。[笑声] >> 没错，而且各个学科都应如此。实际上，如果我没记错，这一点在你们最初的报告中就已经提出：伦理与相关挑战应当和计算机科学的技术内容一起教授。我认为所有计算机科学家都需要接受这方面的训练。
**English / Original**
have AI. And I'm passionate about getting how to getting information about AI to non-science students as well. >> And particularly the risks and the other other social effects of of doing this that will also have to be brought into the curriculum presumably. >> Yep. >> Oh, sorry. [laughter] >> Yes. I mean, >> and that's across the board as well. You know, I think that was already that was actually even part of, if I remember correctly, the the original your original report of like, you know, ethics being taught and challenges as alongside the technical aspects of computer science. I think all computer scientists need to be trained in that.
## 00:16:09
**中文**
>> 顺便说一句，我也认为现在正是人文学科发挥作用的时候，例如哲学、经济学。在我们即将进入的后 AGI 世界里——依我看那是一个新时代——我们非常需要这类思考方式。>> 我正好奇 Demis 多久会提到 AGI。>> 不，他更进一步，已经提到“后 AGI”了。[笑声] 对于在场和收听节目、尚不了解这一概念的听众，能否请你大致说明……>> 要认真对待。>> ……AGI 会带来怎样的变化？
**English / Original**
>> Um, and by the way, I also believe that the time is now for the humanities like philosophy, economics, like I think we really need, you know, in the world we're about to enter into uh post AGI and these things um that's a new era in my opinion. So I feel like uh you know that those types of think that type of thinking is going to be really needed. I was wondering how long it would take you Dennis has actually mentioned AGI and uh >> No, he's gone one further. He's mentioned post AGI and I was just wondering [laughter] if for the uninitiated audience here and >> take it seriously >> and listening. I just wanted to >> give us a just a feel of what how things
## 00:16:50
**中文**
以及你认为它会带来哪些益处、时间表又如何？我知道你说的是 2030 年及以后，但希望你再展开一些。>> 好。首先，我对 AGI 的定义是：一个经测试后能表现出人类所具备全部认知能力的系统。之所以以此为标准，是因为人类及人脑是我们目前所知——也许是整个宇宙中——通用智能存在的唯一实例。我认为大脑近似于一台图灵机。图灵是我一直以来的英雄之一；他证明了通用图灵机……
**English / Original**
will change with AGI uh >> and the benefits as you see it and also the time scales. I know you say 2030 and onwards but a little bit of color on that would be very good. >> Yeah. I mean firstly my definition of AGI is is is you know a system that you can test and exhibits all the cognitive capabilities humans have. The reason that's important is um the human reference point and the human brain reference point is the human brain is the only existence proof we have we know of perhaps in the universe that uh exhibits general intelligence. And I believe that brain is a sort of an approximate cheuring machine. Obviously, cheuring, one of my all-time heroes, he showed what cheuring universal cheering
## 00:17:30
**中文**
能够计算一切可计算之物——量子系统等也许是例外，不过这超出了今天的讨论范围。我认为 AI 系统也应达到这样的水平。这意味着，它应该能够从事我们所知最优秀科学家能够完成的创造与发明。今天的系统远未达到这一点：它们不够稳定，也缺少某些能力。它们在许多方面令人印象深刻，但正如我们每天与这些大语言模型互动时所见，它们仍缺少一些组成部分。这些问题或许可以通过扩大规模解决，也可能仍需要……
**English / Original**
machines, you know, can compute anything. So that's computable uh maybe apart from like quantum systems and other things. It's a bit out of scope for today. But I think um I think that that's what an AI system is. And that means it should be able to do the types of uh creative things and invention things that we know the best scientists were able to do. Today's systems are nowhere near that. They're not consistent enough. um they can't do they have missing capabilities. They're very impressive in many ways but they also as we've all interacted with them every day these these LLMs they're missing some components now that may get solved with scaling um but it may also require one
## 00:18:07
**中文**
一两项重大突破，就像 Transformer，或我们在 AlphaGo 中把强化学习用于深度学习那样。因此，答案尚未揭晓。鉴于目前投入其中的资源和智力，我预计从现在起大约还需四到五年，也就是 2030 年左右。届时，我们将拥有一种前所未有的工具或系统，必须思考如何使用如此具有变革性的技术。在我看来，它会改变一切：经济，甚至可能包括人类的生存状态。不过……
**English / Original**
or two big breakthroughs still uh like transformers were or things like reinforcement learning applied to deep learning like we did with Alph Go. So the jury's out on that. Um I think it's going to be given the amount of resources and brain power going into it um uh you know around four or five years is is my expectation from from where we are today. So around 2030 um and then when that happens you know this that that becomes a new type of tool or uh system that we've never seen before and we'll need to uh uh think about how to use such a transformative piece of technology. uh and it's going to change everything in my opinion, economies, um perhaps even the human condition. But I
## 00:18:49
**中文**
我当然非常看重积极的一面：推动科学、治愈疾病、促进医学进步。这就是我把整个职业生涯投入 AI 和我们所谓 AGI 技术的原因；我们也帮助普及了“AGI”这个词。但系统显然也会带来挑战。随着智能体系统越来越自主，我们已经看到苗头：怎样确保它们始终处在我们设定的护栏内，并按我们的意图行事？再往后，随着机器能力增强，还会涉及意识等问题，也许稍后会谈到；不过第一步是把这些工具做对。
**English / Original**
I'm a very of course the positive part of that would be advancing science, curing uh diseases, advancing medicine. This is why I spent my whole career working on AI and what we call AGI technologies. We help popularize that term. Um but obviously there are challenges with systems and we already see the beginnings of that with the Gentic systems that become more and more autonomous. How do we make sure they stay on the guardrails that we set and they do the things that we want? Um uh then there's questions of things like uh you know beyond that uh of of as the machines get more capable consciousness other things which maybe we'll get into but um the first step is to get these tools right
## 00:19:28
**中文**
>> 我并不完全赞同 Demis 的这些观点。我尊重他的工作；如果所有人都像 Demis，我们当然不用担心，可事实并非如此。[笑声] 不是每个人都像你，Demis。有些人只是为了金钱或权力，[笑声] 会在没有任何测试、评估、安全检查或准则的情况下发布产品，并宣称它无所不能。这正在美国发生。我很喜欢……
**English / Original**
>> and you have an interesting uh >> well I don't agree with Dennis on all this I I respect what he does right and I if everybody was like Demis we'd be all right but they [laughter] aren't okay. Yeah, they aren't Dennis. Right. So, there are people that are just in this for the money or the power [laughter] >> um and um we'll release anything and say it does everything >> um without any testing, any evaluation, any safety checks, any guidelines. This is happening in the states at the moment. I will I loved that.
## 00:20:02
**中文**
>> 说来也巧，我很喜欢你在达沃斯与 Dario 的那场辩论。我称它为“Demis 与 Dario 的达沃斯辩论”，正好四个 D。[笑声] 我还拿给学生看：一边是 Demis，表达着你刚才说的观点；另一边是当时去为公司融资、如今准备上市的 Dario，说我们将在今年年底前达到 AGI，而你试图让他冷静一点。>> 其实那里有些细节——>> 我先退一步。对我而言最关键的是：我不接受这个判断，但假如我们真的在 2030 年前达到某种你认可的 AGI——我个人不站在这一边——那么……
**English / Original**
>> Ironically, love that you did a debate with Dario at Davos. I call it the Demis and Dario at Davos debate. Okay. the four Ds [laughter] and I use this with my students because it was Debis saying the things he's just said here and Dario who was out there to get the money for his company and is now going IPO >> saying we're going to we're going to reach AGI by the end of this year and you were trying to pull him back in that right make some because >> well actually there was a bit so let me roll back the big thing for me if and I don't accept it but if um we reach some form of something you accept as AGI by 2030 which I I don't I personally am
## 00:20:44
**中文**
我们只剩四年时间建立 AI 的全球治理体系；否则就会出现某些方面比我们更聪明的机器。最要紧的是，我们构建的软件可能开始自行决定采取行动——也就是“对不起，Dave，我不能那样做”的时刻，对吧？
**English / Original**
not on that side of the fence but if then that gives us four years to sort out global governance of AI because otherwise we've got machines that are cleverer than us in our some aspects and the big thing is that if the if the software we're building starts to decide to do things on its own >> the sort of I'm sorry Dave I can't do that moment Right.
## 00:21:10
**中文**
而这将不可避免地发生。Stephen Hawking 在 2014 年说过，如果我们制造出比人类更聪明的机器——顺便说，我这里不用“智能”这个词，稍后还会解释——那将是人类种族的终结。这是 Hawking 在 BBC 采访中留下的最后观点之一。威胁是真实存在的，我们绝对必须建立全球治理体系。
**English / Original**
And this will inevitably happen. Um, you know, and Steven Hawings of 2014 said, "If we build machines that are clever, I'm not using the word intelligence, by the way, here. Um, I'll come just say one more thing about that." He said that was the end of the human race. That's one of the last things Stephen Hawking said in a BBC interview. There are threats. We absolutely have to have a global governance um in place.
## 00:21:37
**中文**
我曾是联合国人工智能高级别咨询机构的成员，但那还不够。联合国已不复从前，最终的体系不会隶属于联合国，不过可以从联合国的工作中衍生出来。全球对话将于七月启动，一些政府将汇聚一堂，开始认真讨论这一问题的含义。
**English / Original**
um the and there this I mean I was on the UN high level advisory board. It won't be not enough people um the UN isn't what it used to be and it won't be of the UN but it will it could spin out of the UN. There's the global dialogue starting in July where some governments are going to come together and start really talking about what this means.
## 00:21:59
**中文**
就在本周，特朗普改变了先前的立场，说我们必须开始……他说的是什么来着？不是“监管”，而是要求企业……检查、评估正在发布的软件，我记不起他用的词了。他上台时通过行政命令撤销了拜登的规定。>> 行政命令。>> 对，他颁布行政命令，主张不作任何监管，并阻止各州自行监管。然而本周，他或他的政府改变了立场，认为必须采取行动。我想转折点其实是 Anthropic 的……
**English / Original**
And just this week Trump went back on his word and said we have got to start um what did he say not regulate what's the word he used the companies and the check evaluate the software that's coming out I can't remember the word he used so he he because he when he came into power he he um what's he called he he did a what did the president executive order >> executive order >> he overturned Biden's rule and he he um did an executive order that said no regulation at and he stopped the states regulating. Well, he went back on that this week or his government did and said we because and actually it was because I think the tipping point was the mythos
## 00:22:41
**中文**
……相关软件。
**English / Original**
um software from uh uh anthropic.
## 00:22:44
**中文**
>> 对，而且不只是那件事。许多人一直在提供意见；我们在幕后投入了大量时间参与这些工作，只是没有大张旗鼓地宣传。那起事件成为了很有效的触发点，因为它让银行感到担忧——在座也有汇丰的朋友——而银行一旦担心，大家才会认真对待，政府也会醒过来。也许这反而是件好事，因为它创造了一个采取行动的窗口。我认为这也是那项行政命令最终得以通过的原因。
**English / Original**
>> It's yeah, it's also not just that. There's a lot of people input I'm spending a lot of we're spending a lot of our time inputting into those things behind the scenes. We don't shout about that from the rooftops. Mythos is a has been a very interesting good trigger because it worried the banks and and Besson which is always the be you know that's when people take things seriously right to talking to HSBC people here um you know when the banks get worried then then then government wakes up which is you know maybe it's a good thing and and that means there's a window of opportunity here I think to do something and I think that's why we saw the executive order eventually get through
## 00:23:19
**中文**
但这还不够，还有更多工作要做。Wendy，你知道我们在这一点上完全一致：确实需要某种国际标准。我们的分歧也许只在 AGI 的时间表上。我的说法其实是，到 2030 年有 50% 的概率，当然存在误差范围。关键在于，它可能真的发生，取决于递归式自我改进等技术能否奏效。人们正在探索许多可能加快进程的方向；如果这些方向不奏效，所需时间就会更长，而那反而很好，因为我们会拥有更多……
**English / Original**
and but it's it's not enough and and and there's more and actually we're in um I mean as you know Wendy we're in total agreement I do think there needs to be kind of an international standards um you know I I'm my view is and maybe where we disagree is timelines on AGI but my point is is that there's a I actually talk about it as if 50% chance of 2030 with some obviously margins of error but the point is it could happen depending on things like recursive self-improvement if that works so there's a lot of thing people are working a lot of things that could speed up the timelines right if those things don't work then it may take longer, but that's great. Then we'll just have more
## 00:23:55
**中文**
准备时间。但我的看法是，我们目前并没有能够胜任、足以应对如此重大事件的制度。遗憾的是，这恰逢过去三十年来地缘政治最复杂、最碎片化的时期。正如 Wendy 所说，联合国已不复从前。二十年前，或许还可以设想由联合国设立某种技术小组委员会——我当时确实这样设想过——但今天已经不可想象。因此时间所剩不多。即便是四年；哪怕是十年，如果 Wendy 对、进展会慢一些，从某些方面看也更好，因为……
**English / Original**
time. But my view is we don't have the right institutions fit for purpose to deal with something as consequential as this. All of the unfortunately this is happening at a moment where the geopolitics is as complex as it's been in 30 years. It's it's more fragmented than ever. Um the UN is not what it was as Wendy was saying. So you know maybe one could have imagined in fact I did imagine 20 years ago maybe it would be some form of technical u subcommittee of the UN or something. that's unthinkable now. And and so I feel like um the there's not a lot of time even 4 years, let's say it's 10 years, you know, that would be better in some ways if Wendy's right if it takes a bit longer because
## 00:24:34
**中文**
那样我们和整个社会会有更多准备时间。但我们必须认真对待，我想向关心此事的人说明的是：它可能比预期更早到来，这就是紧迫性所在。现在绝对已经十分紧迫。我们刚看到的网络安全事件只是开端，我更担心接下来出现的生物风险。我一直密切研究这方面，希望借助 AlphaFold 尽可能治愈更多疾病；但这类工具落入错误的人手中也可能被滥用。因此，我担心两类问题。
**English / Original**
then we have more time to get ready and society to get ready. But look, you we got to we got to take it seriously is what I'm explaining to people who care about this that it might be sooner. So that that's the point I'm making is the urgency. It's absolutely urgent now, right? We've just seen mythos cyber that's just the beginning. I'm more worried about things like biorisk coming down the line. Obviously, this is something that I work very closely on to try and cure, you know, as many diseases as possible with alpha fold. But those, you know, those kinds of tools can in the wrong hands can also be misused. And so, there are two things I worry about.
## 00:25:05
**中文**
第一，流氓行为者可能把通用技术用于有害目的，尽管这并非工具的设计初衷。连开源也会受到影响——开源通常是好事，但怎样限制恶意用途？这是我们尚不知如何解决的大问题。第二，是 Wendy 提到的技术问题：系统越自主、越强大、越聪明，怎样确保它们始终遵守我们设定的护栏？即使解决了这些技术问题，还有经济问题：怎样让整个社会广泛受益，而不是只有少数……
**English / Original**
Misuse of general purpose technologies by by by rogue actors for harmful ends. That can happen. You know, not what would those tools were intended for. That even affects things like open source, which is generally good, but how do you restrict bad use cases of that? That's a big problem we don't know how to solve. Uh and then there's the technical question that Wendy alluded to is the making sure the systems as they get more autonomous, more powerful, more smart, how do we make sure that they stick to the guardrails we set them? And then even if we solve those technical questions, then there's the economics questions. How does all of society broadly benefit? Not just a few, you
## 00:25:40
**中文**
公司和个人获益？那不会是一个好结局，也不是社会应走的方向。再进一步，即便经济分配也处理妥当，仍有关于意义与目的的哲学问题。因此，这是一整套层层叠加的问题；在我看来，每一层都比上一层更复杂，而我们早就应该开始着手解决。
**English / Original**
know, handful of companies, a handful of people. Uh that that that we, you know, that's not a good end. That's not a good way for society to go. And then beyond that, even if we get that right, there's the philosophical question about meaning and purpose. But so there's a whole stack of issues, each one more complex in my opinion, and we've got to get going yesterday on these things.
## 00:26:00
**中文**
>> 所以我和其他人已经开始给它一个名字：我们要创建一个“国际 AI 机构”。先把它称作某种实体。它可以从联合国正在开展的工作中衍生出来，但不会隶属于联合国；它需要保持独立。我们——这里的“我们”指所有关心此事的人，而非某个特定组织或团体——必须推动这件事。它必须让科技公司、政府和公民社会共同参与，同时又必须成为企业和政府都能够加入、认可的机构。当然还得有人出资。但我们不能只是坐在那里……
**English / Original**
>> So I've started naming it with others. We're going to create an international AI agency. Let's just call it something. And it could it can uh spin out of the work the UN doing. It won't be of the UN. It could be it needs to be independent. We need to get I say we I mean the people that care about this. There's no particular organization or b group of people um and it's got to involve the tech company's got to involve governments and it's got to involve civil society but it's got to be something that the companies and governments can sign up to. Someone's got to fund it too. So but that's like you know this we we we cannot just sit
## 00:26:41
**中文**
说“这事会由别人去做”。我们必须亲自行动。七月我会参加在日内瓦举行的 AI 活动，你去吗？>> 还不确定。>> 哦，对。[笑声] 第一次全球对话即将在日内瓦举行，由联合国组织，但这并不意味着最终成果必须隶属于联合国。顺便说，英国 Sunak 政府发起的 AI 峰会，我们一直高度支持并帮助推动。我认为这些峰会很有价值；它们还不够，但至少让国际社会汇聚起来，尝试讨论其中一些议题。
**English / Original**
back and say someone else is going to do it. We we have to. So I'll be in AI in Geneva in July. You going >> uh I'm not sure. >> Oh s yeah exactly. [laughter] >> There's the first the d the first dialogue coming um uh global dialogue about this is is happening in Geneva that is being run by the UN but it doesn't mean what comes of it has to be of the UN. I mean that's why the by the way the the AI summits that um was started in the UK with with Sunax government and we were highly supportive of that and helping push that that I think those summits have been good they're not enough but at least they're getting the international community together uh to try and talk about some of these these subjects
## 00:27:23
**中文**
印度会议并没有产生什么成果，德米斯。——确实，但是……那场会议有 25 万人参加。人们为气候变化缔约方大会奔走了多久？现有证据表明，我们需要走另一条路：仅仅开会空谈是不够的。我也认为联合国目前没有真正采取行动的权力，因此需要建立新的机构。当然，这是一项极难拿捏的工作。我们中的许多人都在努力，我也一直试图在幕后推动此事。我很欣赏温迪站在台前积极行动；我认为两者其实都需要——既要有幕后的建议和协调，也要有正面直击问题的行动。
**English / Original**
>> nothing came out of India demis >> sure but but >> 250,000 people at a conference >> when how long have people been trying to do climate change cop meetings for can't we can't the evidence of of so this is what there has to be a different route like talking shops are not going to be enough so um and I just don't think the UN has the power to do anything currently so it's going to be need to be new institutions um but you know that's a tricky needle to thread a lot of it a lot of us are working and I'm working trying to work behind the scenes on this you know I appreciate Wendy's working you know front and center on these things I think both are needed actually behind the scenes advice and maneuvering
## 00:28:03
**中文**
也要正面直击这个问题。
**English / Original**
and then you head on tackling of this.
## 00:28:06
**中文**
——我们还没有提到中国。——我们很快会谈到中国。不过，说到大型科技公司真正参与其中，这难道不像是让火鸡投票赞成过圣诞节吗？——当然不是。事实上，它们反而希望参与。实际情况是，我认识所有实验室负责人——他们都很有个性，可以这么说——但没有人希望发生灾难性事件。
**English / Original**
>> We haven't mentioned China either. >> We will come to China soon. Um, but in terms of the big tech companies actually taking part in this, is is it not like Turkeykey's voting for Christmas though? >> No, of course not. In fact, they want it actually. >> All that's the thing actually all the all the I mean, I know all the lab leaders um they're all characters. Let's put it that way. But there but nobody wants catastrophic things to happen.
## 00:28:31
**中文**
灾难对任何公司、任何个人、任何人的声誉乃至商业都没有好处。因此，其中一些人确实真诚地担忧，并且从科学角度一直对此忧心。我很早就了解他们的动机；像达里奥这样的人，在我们都还是博士后时就会一起讨论这些问题。另一些人是后来才加入的，或许更关心权力和金钱，但他们关心什么其实并不重要：没有人希望灾难发生，政府也一样。即便是最资本主义、最由市场驱动的政府——坦率地说，威权政府也是如此——也不希望出现这种结果。因此，这里仍然存在希望，因为
**English / Original**
That's no good for any companies. It's no good for any individuals any reputations so or for business. So it sort of even if some of them are are genuinely worried and scientifically worried and they always have been I know their motivations from a long time back. People like Dario we we used to chat about these things when we were both posttos others have come lately and maybe they're more interested in power and money but it doesn't matter what you're interested in. You don't want catastrophic things happening and nor does government. uh even the most most uh capitalist should we say or marketdriven governments don't want that or or authoritarian actually frankly so there is hope here because actually it's
## 00:29:07
**中文**
达成某种协议符合所有人的利益。问题在于典型的“公地悲剧”和“囚徒困境”，所以我们需要某种治理机制和政府参与。因为即便大家已经商定了一套规则，总会有人能通过背弃规则来赚钱，对吧？这才是问题所在。好消息是，就我接触到的这个领域的研究人员、实验室负责人和公司领导者而言，我认为他们每个人都希望有所行动，也都希望建立某些护栏和标准。
**English / Original**
in everyone's interest to come to some sort of agreement the problem is the usual tragedy of the commons prisoners dilemma issues um which is why we need some kind of governance and and government involvement because the companies it's always in someone's interest to make money you know by defecting from some agreed protocol right that's the problem um it's and individually I think all of the the good news is I would say all of the researchers and lab leaders and company leaders I talk to in this space do want something to happen uh and and do want some uh guard rails and some standards.
## 00:29:40
**中文**
问题是：这些护栏和标准具体是什么、应当如何运作、由谁负责。不过，我和其他一些人正在幕后向几个主要国家的政府提出建议。——听到这个消息太好了，谢谢。接下来换个话题……你刚才说“我知道你要谈到……”好吧，我也不确定。
**English / Original**
Um the question is what those are, how that should operate and and who should run that. Um but me and others we're we're making proposals behind the scenes to to you know some of the main governments. >> That's great to hear. Thank you. >> Just moving to See, when you said I know you're going to come Well, I don't know.
## 00:29:59
**中文**
你说“大型科技公司”时，指的是美国西海岸那些公司。——是的。——那么，你不关心中国的大型科技公司及其行动吗？——当然关心。中国会很乐意主持我们可能建立的任何机构，也有能力这样做。正如德米斯所说，出于许多不同的原因——其中不少与西方相同——中国同样迫切希望避免 AI 灾难；事实上，它们会很乐意负责我们最终设立的任何机制。关于中国，我还想补充一点——抱歉提前展开，但我认为无法回避——它们大多会发布
**English / Original**
When you said the big tech companies, you meant the ones on the west coast of America. >> I did. >> Yeah. So, don't you care about the big tech companies in China and what they're doing? >> We do. >> Yes. I mean, this this they I mean, China would love to run whatever agency we might set up. They would do it because their support, you know, they they want they are as in as Demis said they are as keen not have a catastrophe in AI as for many different reasons and the same reasons as as the West is but actually they they would love to run whatever we're going to set up. And the other thing about China, I'm sorry I'm going into it because I don't think you can avoid it, is they largely produce
## 00:30:37
**中文**
自己的模型。它们发布开放代码，整体上开放得多；这既有好处也有坏处。但与美国政府相比，它们更愿意接受这类想法。——既然谈到了中国，我想问：AI 的大量投资和活动都发生在美国和中国。作为一个国家，我们以及本国企业会不会被甩在后面，只能旁观、只能成为这种技术的用户，
**English / Original**
their models. You know, they're producing open code and much more open and and there's good and bad about that, but they are much more welcoming of these ideas of than say the US government is. >> Okay. Since we're talking about China, I was just wondering uh whether a lot of the uh investment and a lot of the um stuff that's happening in AI is in the US and China and are we going to just be uh as a country are our companies just going to be left behind and be uh watching and being users of the
## 00:31:18
**中文**
而无法像您和德米斯那样成为技术的发明者？——我们不能接受那种局面。我曾对多位欧洲领导人说过这一点：你不能只做“监管领域的世界冠军”。我大约在 2017 年就对马克龙这样说过，他也试图为此采取行动。仅仅擅长监管算不上真正的优势。没错，我就是这样对他说的：你还必须在技术上处于领先地位，拥有一些领先企业和顶尖学者，如此才能在谈判桌上有一席之地。首先，这能让你提前看到即将到来的变化；其次，你也会拥有某种
**English / Original**
technology rather than like what you've Dennis is being an inventor of such technologies. >> Well, we can't be I mean I think it's important that uh and I've told this to all various European leaders that you can't just be I told this to Macron back in around 2017 and he tried to do something about it. You cannot be world champions at regulation only. That's not a thing. Exactly. Right. So to have a se I literally told him that and I said you can you know you've got to also be leading in the technology and have lead some leading companies and leading academics so that you can have a seat at the table. So first of all you see what's coming down the line uh ahead of time uh and you also have a sort of
## 00:32:00
**中文**
参与讨论并得到倾听的道义权威。我曾经推动英国、法国和加拿大建立某种三边合作，因为在我看来，除了美国和中国两大超级力量之外，这三个国家的研究实力最强。若把论文引用、研究人员等指标合在一起看，这三国的组合相当可观。当然，你也可以加入其他欧洲国家以及新加坡等，但这三个国家本可以在两个超级大国之间形成一股温和的制衡力量。由于政治等原因，这并未真正实现，不过我认为机会仍然存在。
**English / Original**
moral authority to have a seat around the table and be listened to. And um there was a time when I was trying to encourage a sort of trilateral thing with Britain, France and Canada because I would say those three countries were uh kind of the the next best at research after the two superpowers US and China. actually as a three if you look at citations papers researchers it's pretty like those three countries together now you could include some other European countries and also there's Singapore and so on but those three could could create a kind of moderate bull work between the two superpowers didn't quite happen for politics and other reasons but there's still an opportunity there I think the
## 00:32:39
**中文**
英国仍处在得天独厚的位置，可以把握这个机会。我们显然是 Google 的一部分，但我们尽了自己的一份力，把总部留在这里，并吸引了数千名顶尖研究人员来此。他们在 DeepMind 做出了卓越成果，其中许多人工作五年、六年乃至十年后，又离开去创办其他项目。一旦在某地扎根，人们往往会因为家庭、喜欢这座城市等原因继续留下来；我认为我们已经看到这种效应。每个生态系统都需要这样的锚点。惠普、英特尔等公司在当地播下种子之前，硅谷还不是今天的硅谷；但这些公司也受益于附近强大的
**English / Original**
UK is still uniquely positioned to to to take advantage of this we've tried to do our bit of obviously we're part of Google but I kept eat headquartered here we bought thousands thousand of top researchers here. You know, they did some great work at DeepMine. Many of them then after five, six, 10 years went and started other things. And once you embed yourself in a in a location, you stay tend to stay there, right? Family reasons, other things you'd like the city and so on. And I think we're seeing that. And all ecosystems need anchors like that. Silicon Valley was not Silicon Valley until Huelet Packard and and and Intel, all these kind of companies seeded it, right? And there but they also came from strong
## 00:33:16
**中文**
大学，如斯坦福、伯克利等。英国同样拥有这些条件：所谓“黄金三角”，包括剑桥、牛津、伦敦等地。我们有众多强大的机构，而这些积淀需要几个世纪才能形成。我们拥有这些资产，也拥有非常聪明的人才；现在只需要更大的雄心，在本地充分利用它们。希望政府能够鼓励这种发展，至少不要成为阻碍。
**English / Original**
universities nearby. Stanford, Berkeley and so on. And we we have that here. The Golden Triangle, you know, Cambridge, Oxford, Hampton, UC, we got so many strong these things take centuries to build up. We have those assets. We have very smart people. Um we just need to have more ambition and utilize them here and hopefully government encourage that or at least not get in the way of that.
## 00:33:36
**中文**
我认为我们目前做得相当不错，但还可以做得更好。下一阶段的问题，是如何为企业的成长阶段融资；这一环目前有所缺失，或许在座的金融界人士可以思考该怎么解决。我认为证券交易所需要作出一些调整。我不明白为什么企业如今不再选择在伦敦证券交易所上市。
**English / Original**
And um I think we're doing pretty well here, but we could do better. Um and then the next stage is is financing the growth stage of companies which is missing which I think maybe some of the financiers in the room can can think how would we do that. I think the stock exchange needs some some um uh updating. I don't know why companies don't float on the London stock exchange anymore.
## 00:33:56
**中文**
它们往往会去美国上市。这里显然存在某种需要解决的问题。我认为我们完全可以把握当前的机会，因为所有必要条件都已经具备。另一个重大问题是，我们必须降低能源成本并减少能源依赖，这也部分出于安全考虑。也许多种积极因素会在此交汇。但目前英国的能源价格是西方世界最高的。
**English / Original**
They you know they will go to the US. There's obviously some problem there that needs to be addressed and and I just think uh we could be we could take advantage of this moment. We have all the right ingredients. The other big thing is we've got to address energy costs and our energy dependence partly for security reasons. So perhaps there's going to be a confluence of good things here. But we have the most expensive energy in the western world.
## 00:34:18
**中文**
问题在于，能源会直接转化为智能：实际上就是瓦特转成美元，再转成 token。在这种成本结构下，AI 产业无法发展壮大。数据中心、信息和 token 将构成新的工业基础；关键问题是每单位成本能够完成多少推理。因此，能源问题如今至关重要——它不仅关系到所有现有产业，也决定着未来产业。相关投资最终也会获得回报。如果接下来谈到气候和环境，数据中心等设施显然会引发担忧，
**English / Original**
And the problem with that is that's going to directly translate into intelligence. It's literally watts to dollars to um tokens. So that's that you cannot build our industry out. This that's the new industrial base, right? If you believe what's going to happen with AI is data centers, information, it's tokens. how much can you inference per per unit cost? And so this is vital now. It's vital for all our industries, but it's it's going to be vital for the industries of the future. So, and then that will pay itself if we're going to I don't know if we're going to get to climate and and environment, but obviously there's a worry about that with the data centers and things like
## 00:34:53
**中文**
但在我看来，这种担忧有些转移焦点。如果我们正确构建这些技术，AI 反而会帮助我们开发真正能够解决气候变化的未来技术。我们正在研究核聚变、材料设计、更高效的太阳能等各种方向。我们即将推动一场新的文艺复兴，而英国有机会站在最前沿。真正改变气候问题方程式的，将是这些突破，而不是现在设法削减百分之一或百分之二的排放。——我可以接着说吗？顺着这个思路，结合我们与南安普顿工程师的交流，我认为未来我们
**English / Original**
that. But actually I just think that's a bit to me that's a red herring because that if we build these technologies right they will be the it will be AI that will help us deliver the technologies of the future that will actually solve climate change. So we're working on fusion, material design, better solar power, power power, you know, all sorts of things. We're are going to be advancing this new renaissance here I see coming. We could be at the forefront of that and that will is the thing that will then, you know, completely change the climate equation, not trying to shave off 1% or 2% right now. Can I come into that because um riffing off of that the you know we'll all I think in the future we
## 00:35:30
**中文**
都会希望自己的城市或城镇拥有一座数据中心，因为我们会反转目前的模式，使数据中心未来成为电力和能源的提供者。——是的，这确实是发展方向。英国还有一个很擅长的领域，未来几周大家会看到不少相关消息。首先，得益于里希·苏纳克所做的工作，我们拥有世界上最出色的 AI 安全研究所。——没错。——它们是最优秀的，正在为如何评估科技公司推出的系统设定基准。
**English / Original**
will talking to our engineers at Southampton we will all want a data center in our in our city or our town because they will we'll turn the we'll turn it round we'll flip it so they become the generators of power electricity in the future. Yeah, it's it's it's abs it's where it's going to go. The other thing I want to say that we are good at here um and something you're going to see quite a bit about over the next few weeks. Firstly, we have thanks to what Richie Sunnak did the best AI security institute in the worlding right >> uh they are the best and they are setting the benchmarks for how you evaluate what's coming out of the tech companies.
## 00:36:10
**中文**
——我希望它们不仅评估美国，也能评估中国，不过那是另一个大问题。我们也是全球相关机构网络的一部分。这个网络如今改称“AI 评估、测量与科学网络”或“测量科学网络”，因为特朗普不希望它们继续被称作安全研究所。我们还资助了国家物理实验室新建的 AI 测量中心。这推动的是整个“AI 科学”——不是“AI 用于科学”，而是研究 AI 本身的科学。我认为英国非常擅长引领这类
**English / Original**
>> I wish they do China as well as America but anyway that's another whole issue. Um and uh we are part of the network of those around the world which are now called the network of of um uh AI evaluation measurement and science or measurement science. They've changed the name because Trump didn't want them to be called security institutes. Um and we also have funded a new center for AI measurement at the national physical laboratory. Um, and this is a whole driving the whole science of AI, not AI for science, but the science of AI, which I think is something we we're very good in this country at leading on these
## 00:36:51
**中文**
新兴科学，未来潜力巨大。这些工作都归在所谓“AI 保障（AI assurance）”的框架之下，而英国也很擅长这类工作。下周伦敦科技周期间，政府将发布一项相关公告，推动这一领域发展成为一种职业，而且不仅面向技术人员，也面向未来运营 AI 保障行业的人才。如果我们继续推进，英国有能力在这一领域发挥引领作用；我认为本届政府在这一点上的方向是对的。
**English / Original**
types of new sciences. I think that's a huge potential for the future. And it's all comes under the umbrella of what is being called AI assurance, which um we're also very good at the doing this type of stuff in the UK. And you're going to see an announcement in London Tech Week next week from the government about a new or growing that as a as a career not just for technical people but for people who are going to run the AI assurance industry and we'll be able to lead on that in here in the UK if if we keep going and I think this government's got that right.
## 00:37:27
**中文**
——完全赞同。我也要再次称赞英国的 AI 安全研究所——现在称为 AI 安保研究所——它处于世界领先水平。英国在这方面极其出色，学术基础也可以为其提供支持，因为这类工作确实应当由非企业机构参与开展。我认为这条路正在发挥示范作用，也能为未来的标准机构提供技术能力。无论最终建立怎样的标准机构，都需要高度专业的技术人员，而这些人才可以来自各国安全研究所组成的网络。
**English / Original**
>> 100% agree on that. that just again to call the praise out of the AI safety institute as it was called security institute now in the UK is the world leading and we we are extremely good at that and I think that's something our academic base can feed into too because you actually want um uh non-co company uh organizations doing that type of work really right uh and so I think that is leading the way and I think that's one way towards having the technical capability for whatever standards body there is you need the techn you know you need the highly technical folks and those could come from these uh security institutes networks.
## 00:38:02
**中文**
——非常好，谢谢。现在稍微换个话题。我想问德米斯：你刚才谈到英国以及这里拥有的人才智慧。我们的确拥有良好的人才储备。我很想知道，你当初为什么选择在英国创办 DeepMind？而且至今仍将 DeepMind 的运营中心留在英国、留在伦敦，这非常了不起。
**English / Original**
>> Super. Thank you. Um I'm going to just switch to a slightly different uh topic now. I'm just going to ask Emis, I wanted to ask you, you mentioned about UK and the and the and the power of the brain that we have here. We have got a good talent pool. I was very keen to understand a why did you set up uh Deep Mind in the UK? you still run deep mind in the UK which is phenomenal in London.
## 00:38:30
**中文**
这对我们公司也非常有益。我还想问，我们应当怎样发现新的英国原创突破，并把它们发展成全球性企业？——我选择在伦敦创办 DeepMind 有几个原因。第一，我出生并成长在这里，热爱这个国家和伦敦，也热爱我曾经求学的剑桥。这片土地给予了我很多，我希望有所回馈。这是个人原因。从商业角度看，当时英国乃至欧洲有大量尚未被发掘的人才。我过去常给早期投资者讲这样一个故事：
**English / Original**
It's great for us uh as a company as well. Um but what we want to I wanted to ask you how do we uh find new British breakthroughs and create global businesses out of them? Well, look, I I started Deep Mine in London for a few reasons. Um, one is that I was born and grew up here and I love the country and love London and I love the where I studied at Cambridge and so on and the things it gave to me and I wanted to give back. Second thing but the on the commercial side as a personal reason on the commercial side of things there was a lot of talent in the UK and actually in Europe that was untapped. So the the story I used to tell my early investors
## 00:39:11
**中文**
想象你拥有剑桥大学物理学博士学位，水平世界一流，但不想继续留在物理学术界；你希望留在英国，同时从事一份真正挑战智力的工作。当时你唯一的选择大概就是进入金融业或对冲基金——请在场的金融界人士见谅，但我希望提供另一种选择。如果你想继续投身科学或深科技呢？那是在 2010 年，简直像“黑暗时代”：伦敦几乎没有人从事 AI、深科技或类似领域。因此，整片天地几乎任我开拓，我得以招聘这些
**English / Original**
was imagine you're a physics PhD from Cambridge. Okay, world class, but you don't want to stay in academia in physics. You want and but you want to stay in the UK and you want to do a job that really um stretches your mind, right? The only option for you would be to go into finance and hedge funds. Excuse the finance people in the room, but I wanted to give a different option, right? Other than that, like what if you wanted to stay in something scientific or deep tech? So I just felt this is back in 2010. This is like the, you know, the dark ages. Like, no one was doing any AI, deep tech, anything like that in London. And so I had the whole field to myself. So I was hiring these
## 00:39:48
**中文**
杰出人才，年薪大约只有 5 万英镑。以今天 AI 行业的行情，这点钱连实习生一天都未必请得到，对吧？所以，我们凭借极其有限的预算获得了惊人的条件。最初只融资了几百万英镑，用来启动项目，却能够从英国乃至整个欧洲招募世界一流人才，包括洛桑联邦理工学院、苏黎世联邦理工学院和法国顶尖院校。当时根本没有能与我们竞争的机构。这是极佳的起步优势，并持续了六七年。后来，大型科技公司终于意识到这里汇聚了大量人才，纷纷在伦敦设立分支机构。这其实对英国有利，因为它
**English / Original**
amazing people for like 50k a year. You can't even get an intern for a day for that these days in AI, right? Um, and so that was incredible on a on a shoestring budget. We had, you know, we we we raised a couple of million to just try and get going. And uh I could hire world-class people, not just from the UK, but all around Europe. EPFL, ETH, uh, and and the top French schools and there was just nothing that was that was rivaling that. So that was an amazing, uh, for to begin with and it lasted for about six, seven years and then big tech sort of realized there was a lot of talent here and they've all set up their their their satellite offices here which is good for the UK actually because it
## 00:40:27
**中文**
把越来越多的人才和投资带到这里。看看国王十字车站周边就知道，整个区域如今因科技投资而焕然一新。那些人在这里工作几年后，也许会离开并创办自己的初创公司，这又会形成新的循环。最后一个原因是，我有一种“挑战弱者叙事”的心态：我想证明，在这里也能成就世界级事业。我一直觉得英国在这个领域没有发挥出与自身实力相称的水平。DeepMind 证明了这一点，希望它能激励下一代创始人在这里开创令人惊叹的事业；我认为它确实已经产生了这样的影响。
**English / Original**
brings more and more talent and investment here and you see that around all around King's Cross. the whole of King's Cross is is now this amazing place because of all the tech investment that's gone in. And then again, you know, those people stay for a few years and then they maybe they go and do startups. So that's the other thing. And then the the final thing was I just I think our um a bit of an underdog story is I kind of wanted to prove that it could be done here. Um and that uh we could we were I just felt we were punching under our weight in this in this area. And I think we proved a point with with with Deep Mind and hopefully that inspired and I think it has inspired the next generation of you know
## 00:41:03
**中文**
这些创业者可能投身量子、核聚变等艰深技术和深科技，当然也可能进入金融和银行业。不过，我认为我们还能走得更远。英国接下来需要孕育第一家在本土保持独立、成长壮大的万亿美元级企业。这大概是英国生态系统面临的下一项挑战。但我相信我们能够做到。其他地方已有一些类似苗头，例如丹尼尔·埃克在斯德哥尔摩通过 Spotify 所作的努力，并由此激励了当地新一代创业者。只需要少数几件成功案例播下种子，生态系统再借助政府的
**English / Original**
founders to start amazing things here uh in hard technologies deep tech whether it's like quantum or fusion or or um you know indeed finance and banking. So um but I think we could go further. We need we now need to produce our our first let's say trillion dollar company here that that that remains independent and grows here. That's probably the next challenge for the UK ecosystem. But I I I believe we'll we'll we'll do that and there are pockets of that like stock Daniel X trying to do this in Stockholm, you know, with Spotify and then he's inspiring a next generation of entrepreneurs there and you just need a few things to happen and seed and then the ecosystems with the government's
## 00:41:41
**中文**
支持，就能在此基础上不断成长。
**English / Original**
help can can build on that.
## 00:41:43
**中文**
——是的，但关键就在于政府的支持，而这恰恰是我们没有得到的。在座就有人正在为这件事努力，你也知道。问题在财政部；你就是无法推动他们改变做事方式，因此机会不断流失。——我同意。——我们有人才，也有大学。
**English / Original**
>> Yeah. But the key is the government's help. That's where we don't get it. There are people in this room who are working on that very thing. you know that and and it's treasury and you just can't get through the change the way they do things. to the missing opportunities. I think >> yeah, >> we've got the brains. We've got the universities.
## 00:42:04
**中文**
——这样说可以吧？我们拥有大学，正如德米斯所说，也拥有这里全部的杰出人才。看看其他国家：美国政府正在停止资助研究，这非常令人担忧，但对我们而言也是机会。当然还有中国——抱歉我总提中国——但我们现在拥有一个极佳的乘势而上机会。只是政府必须解决企业投资的问题。
**English / Original**
>> Is that okay? We got the universities. We got, as you said, Dem to repeat that all the talent here. Um, amazing talent here. Other countries, I mean, well, I mean, if you look at what's happening in America and how this government is stopping funding research in America, it's very scary. It's good opportunity for us though. And of course, you got China. Sorry to keep mentioning China, but you have [laughter] but um you know we have a fantastic opportunity to to ride high now but we do need the government to to sort out the the how we get the investment into the companies.
## 00:42:38
**中文**
我们能够培育独角兽，难点是如何迈向下一个阶段。——正是下一阶段。——德米斯，我再问最后一个问题：为什么你会选择蛋白质折叠作为首个攻克目标？——我毕生研究 AI，是因为我认为它最终会成为科学的终极工具。
**English / Original**
We can get the unicorns. It's getting it to the next level >> the next level now. >> Yeah. >> And and just one more question for you Dennis. Uh I was very keen to understand why did you choose protein folding >> as the first uh >> Yes. Well, look, I I I spent my whole life working on AI because I thought it would be the ultimate tool for science.
## 00:43:00
**中文**
我一直对重大问题感兴趣，比如现实的本质、万物如何运作。对我而言，表达这种兴趣的方式，就是构建帮助科学家的最佳工具。我本科在剑桥时就接触到蛋白质折叠和蛋白质结构预测。我的许多生物学家朋友都对此感兴趣，其中一位尤其痴迷，总是不停地谈论这个问题。我认真倾听——特别是当一个人对某件事充满热情时，我总会格外认真地听。我首先觉得，这是一个极其精彩的科学问题，也像是一道终极谜题。
**English / Original**
So, I've always been interested in the big questions, you know, of the nature of reality. How do things work? And for me, my expression of that was to build the best tool to help scientists. Now, protein folding and and protein structure prediction, I came across that as an undergrad in Cambridge. A lot of my biologist friends, one of specifically was obsessed with that and would talk about it all the time. So, I listened very carefully. I I tend to try to listen very carefully especially about people who are very passionate about things and I thought it was an amazing first of all an amazing scientific question. Um it was an amazing it's like the ultimate puzzle.
## 00:43:35
**中文**
一维的遗传序列如何折叠成精巧的三维纳米机器？这太奇妙了。它还是我所谓的“根节点问题”：一旦攻克，就会打开全新的发现分支，例如药物发现和对基础生物学的理解。我总会被这类问题吸引。曾有人把它称为生物学中的“费马大定理”；谁能抗拒这样的挑战呢？
**English / Original**
How does this you know one-dimensional uh uh genetic sequence fold up into this exquisite three-dimensional little nano machines? Amazing. And it was also what I call a root node problem. If you cracked it, it would open up whole new branches of discovery, right? drug discovery, fundamental biology understanding. And I'm always attracted to these, you know, it was described to me once as Fat's last theorem equivalent for biology. So, who can resist that?
## 00:44:02
**中文**
人们已经为此努力了 50 年。即便在当时，也就是 20 世纪 90 年代，虽然完全没有今天这些技术，我仍然感觉这正是 AI 或许可以帮助解决的问题。于是，我把它放在脑海深处近 20 年——准确说大约 15 年。后来 AlphaGo 完成比赛，我从韩国回来；我们不但赢得比赛，AlphaGo 还下出了原创的“第 37 手”。它在棋局这个有限领域里作出了某种发现，但这仍然令人难以置信。
**English / Original**
And people have been trying to solve it for 50 years. Um, and then the other thing was I just even back then, this was in the '90s, we didn't of of course we had none of the technology that we have today, but I could feel it was the sort right sort of problem for AI to perhaps help with. So I just filed it in the back of my mind for like nearly 20 years really 15 years and then until the day after we had the Alph Go match and I came back from South Korea and you know not only we won the match but Alph Go had played an original move this move 37. So it made a sort of discovery obviously in the m in the in the limited domain of a game but still kind of unbelievable that it could do that and
## 00:44:41
**中文**
我一直在等待看到这样的系统：它不仅能达到那种表现水平，还能做出那类原创发现。我回国当天便启动了 AlphaFold 项目。——太精彩了，我以前没听过这个故事。——如今我们又通过英国新成立的分拆公司 Isomorphic Labs 延续这项工作，因为我认为生物学与信息科学之间存在同构关系；生物学可以被视为一种信息处理系统。——我的博士研究就是代数拓扑，所以我对这些非常着迷。
**English / Original**
that was what I was waiting to see having a system that could not only perform at that level but do those kind of things and the day I got back is when I you know we started the alpha project >> fantastic I hadn't heard that before good that's good it's probably >> and now and now we continue now [laughter] we continue with isomeorphic labs this new spin out in UK cuz I feel there's isomorphism between biology and information sciences. I think biology can be thought of as an information processing system >> because I'm an algebraic topologist, right? So my PhD was in all this sort of stuff. I'm fascinated.
## 00:45:15
**中文**
——那你一定会喜欢这个名字。Isomorphic Labs 正在 AlphaFold 的成果上继续推进。AlphaFold解决的是蛋白质结构，但那只是药物发现流程中一个重要的组成部分。我认为整个药物发现领域都需要彻底重塑，而这正是我们试图通过 Isomorphic Labs 实现的目标。
**English / Original**
>> Yeah, you Yeah, you'll like the name. So that's that's and that's that's building on what Alpha did, which is protein structure, but that's only one it's an important but only one component of the drug discovery process. And that's a that's a field I think that needs to be completely reimagined. And that's what we're trying to do with isomeorphic.
## 00:45:33
**中文**
——未来三到五年，制药行业会发生什么，值得期待。——是的，会非常有意思。——我们会关注你们的进展，因为你们似乎也在开展材料科学方面的工作。——是的，不过那是另一条独立的路线，由 DeepMind 推进。我们正在把 AI 应用于多个科学领域，但这些项目还处在更早期阶段。
**English / Original**
>> Yeah. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next three to five years in in the pharmaceutical industry. >> Yes. I Yeah. Very very interesting times. We we'll be watching what you guys do because you're doing something with material sciences as well. >> Yeah. That's a separate thing. So we're doing that at deep mind. So we we're applying AI at deep mind to many areas of science but those are earlier stage.
## 00:45:54
**中文**
它们大致处于 AlphaFold 之前的阶段。我们的研究包括材料科学、帮助控制核聚变反应堆中的等离子体、数学和天气预报。我们与英国气象局合作，开发了世界上最好的飓风预测算法，而且速度远快于传统流体动力学系统。美国气象部门去年预测飓风“梅利莎”的路径时就采用了该系统，最终它转向牙买加。如果能多提供 12 到 24 小时预警，地面应对的结果就会产生巨大差异。
**English / Original**
They're they're like pre-alpha fold stage. But material science, we're helping with fusion containing plasma and fusion reactors, uh, mathematics, weather prediction. We work with the MET office. Uh, we've got the best hurricane prediction algorithms in the world. They're like they're also way faster than the traditional fluid dynamic systems. So that was actually used by the US Met Office for Hurricane Melissa last year to predict which path it would go down. And it ended up going veering into Jamaica. And they, you know, if you can give tw 124 hours more warning, that's huge difference for outcome on the ground.
## 00:46:30
**中文**
——可惜我们没能预测今天的 RMT 罢工。——是的，那要困难得多。——因为涉及人。——没错，人类是最难预测的复杂对象。我的工作人员正用非常不满的眼神看着我，她希望开始现场提问——现在她笑了。不过，我还想简短谈谈你刚才提到的平等问题。请用很短的答案回答：技术会不会不论性别、背景和特权，为人们打开机会之门？还是说，它反而可能把我们带向另一条道路？——这个……我得说，我其实很不愿意使用“服从”这个词。我结婚时甚至拒绝在婚礼誓词里加入“服从”，但刚才我还是听从了安排。
**English / Original**
>> It's a It's a pity we couldn't predict the RMD strike today. [laughter] >> Yes. That's a lot harder. >> It's a lot harder cuz it's about people. >> Humans. Exactly. They're the most complex things to predict. >> Uh my clark is giving me really bad looks thinking we she wants to start the questions, but um she's smiling now. Um but I just want to touch on something NI that you said earlier on which is equality and I'm very curious a very short answer on this please. Are we going to open doors for people uh regardless of gender background privilege or does [snorts] technology risk actually taking us down a different path? Well, I I mean, you know, I I have
## 00:47:12
**中文**
所以……先从性别问题讲起。自 20 世纪 80 年代进入计算机领域以来，我一直非常关注女性在计算领域代表性不足的问题。令人害怕的是，情况非但没有改善，反而恶化了；在 AI 领域尤其严重。看看硅谷，领导层几乎完全是一种单一文化。
**English / Original**
to say people and I I I really was reluctant to use the word obedience because when I got married, I refused to have the wedding ceremony that had the word obey in it, right? But I obeyed here. So [laughter] um I but um so I been passionate about uh I'm going to start with the gender thing. I've been passionate about uh the lack of women in computing since 19 the 1980s when I started in computing and my the scary thing is it's got worse rather than better and in AI it's far worse right you look at Silicon
## 00:47:53
**中文**
我看到观众席里的年轻一代，包括 Me 和 Sue。我们为此努力了太久；年轻人带着全新的眼光加入，说“我们能改变，我们能改变”。世界上也有像 Fei-Fei Li 等榜样，但过去 40 年里，这个指标几乎没有任何实质变化。这一点极其重要，在 AI 领域更为重要。我的导师之一 Karen Spärck Jones 曾把一句话印在 T 恤上：
**English / Original**
Valley and the leadership is all one monoculture monoculture um and um I I you know I see the younger generation of me and Sue there sitting in the audience. We've been trying to do this for so long coming in and looking at with all new but we can change this we can change this you know the amarie imidians of this world and we haven't shifted the dial in the last 40 years um and it's it's it's so important it's even more important in AI my mentor one of them was Karen Spark Jones and she had them she used to put on her t-shirts
## 00:48:35
**中文**
“计算太重要了，不能只交给男性。”这并不是贬低男性，而是说计算属于我们所有人，这个行业需要所有人参与。我们需要的不仅是性别多样性。现在我会说：“AI 太重要了，不能只交给男性。”这件事甚至更为重要，因为如果我们真要抵达 AGI 这一“圣杯”，就必须思考正在建设、或希望建设的是怎样的社会。我知道德米斯这样的人理解这一点，也知道这件事必须做好；但外面还有许多人并不理解。他们轻率地谈论
**English / Original**
if she um computing is too important to be left to men you know [snorts] that one. This is not to denigrate men. This is to say it's for all of us, right? We need everybody involved in this industry. We need um we need and it's not just gender diversity, but I now say AI is too important to be left to men, right? It's it's actually more important because of all the things that if we're going to get to this holy grail of AGI then um we we have to think about what type of society we're building or we want to build. Now I know that someone like Demis understands this has got to be done but there's a lot of people out there that don't. They glibly talk about
## 00:49:17
**中文**
AGI，好像一切都会保持原样。
**English / Original**
AGIS is it's all going to be the same.
## 00:49:20
**中文**
仿佛我们只是拥有了非常聪明的机器，生活仍会像现在一样继续。事实不会如此。因此，我们必须认真思考要建设什么样的社会。你不可能长期只对人们说：你的工作会消失，你的孩子将没有职业、没有工作，而且这一切还可能毁灭人类。现在已经出现了抵制 AI 的萌芽，我认为这非常危险。在座一些人还记得，当年人们高喊“不要把核弹部署在我的城镇”，
**English / Original**
we just have these very clever machines and it'll we'll just carry on life as it we we are now. It won't be like that. So we have to think through what type of society we're trying to build. What type I mean you have u there's only so much that you can say so long you can say to people right your jobs are going to go your kids aren't going to have a career or a job and anyway this could wipe out the human race. There is the beginning there is the beginning of a resistance movement to AI and I think that's very dangerous. I remember some of you here will remember when people were saying no nuclear bombs in my town and there's all
## 00:50:00
**中文**
还有格里纳姆公地妇女和平营等反核抗争，因为人们感到无能为力。在当下的美国，人们感到完全无力，甚至不明白这个政府究竟为何当选。我们也会感到无力，因为政府一旦经选举上台，人们就无法控制它接下来会做什么。举个我很喜欢讲的例子：我私人助理 18 岁的女儿非常聪明，即将去布里斯托大学学习一门很有挑战性的专业。前几周，她告诉母亲，她们班已经决定把教室设为“AI 禁区”。
**English / Original**
the you know the green and common women and everything that fighting the nuclear bombs because people feel feel powerless >> right in America they feel totally powerless at the moment they don't understand how this government got elected really we feel powerless because once you have elected a government then you have no control over what they're going to do. So, I mean, my um I love saying this, my PA, her 18-year-old daughter, she's very bright young lady going to Bristol University to study something clever and she she told her mom the other week that her class have decided their classroom is AI free.
## 00:50:40
**中文**
你可能觉得不可思议，但南安普顿大学以及其他大学的学生也在表达类似态度。我们告诉他们怎样在学习中使用 AI，他们却说：“如果这项技术真像企业描述的那样，我们不想与它有任何关系。”我们不能让这种局面持续；我们希望人们把握 AI 带来的巨大机遇。因此，这是必须解决的问题。它并不完全属于安全议题，而是一个更广泛的社会问题。科技公司必须参与其中；我不确定政府应处于什么位置，但我们必须开展这场讨论，
**English / Original**
Right? you like but that's what the and the people um students at Southampton I'm sure in other universities are saying because we're telling them how to use AI in their studies and they're saying we don't want to do that if this stuff is all the things the companies are telling us we don't want anything to do with it now we've got to we don't want that to we want people to grasp the the great opportunities that AI will afford us so that's something we've got to tackle and it's won't it's not part of the safety It's it's part of um and the tech companies have got to get involved with this and and I don't know where governments fit in but we have got to have this discussion um as and and
## 00:51:21
**中文**
思考在拥有这些极为聪明、可能具备智能的系统时，我们到底希望建设怎样的社会。我谨慎地使用“智能”一词，因为最后还想说一点：机器智能与人类智能之间存在区别。我们也许会实现 AGI，但这些系统不会成为人类。
**English / Original**
think about what type of society we're trying to build where we've got these very clever potentially intelligent I use that carefully because I think I'm going to say one other thing then I'll shut up which is that I think there's a difference between machine intelligence and human intelligence and we might get AGI but it's not they're not going to be human.
## 00:51:40
**中文**
——谢谢。现在有一个来自现场、向您提出的问题，提问者是伦敦金融城市政机构政策委员会主席，也是我的挚友 Chris Hayward。——非常感谢。这是一个向德米斯提出的两部分问题。第一，如果英国要在未来 12 个月作出一项政策决定，使其不仅在构建 AI 方面领先，也能在包括我所代表的金融服务业在内的领域负责任地大规模部署 AI，这项决定应当是什么？第二，你认为 DeepMind、生态系统中的其他领导者与伦敦金融城市政机构等机构之间，最大的合作机会在哪里，
**English / Original**
>> Thank you. Um, I've got a question from the floor for you. Uh, it's from the policy chairman of the city of London Corporation, my very dear friend Chris Haywood. >> Thank you very much, master. It's a it's a question to you, sis, if I may. And it's in two parts. And the first part is if there is one policy decision that the UK needs to take in the next 12 months to lead not just in building AI but in deploying it responsibly at scale particularly in financial services which is the area I represent. What would it be? And the second part to the question is where do you see the greatest opportunity for collaboration between organizations like Deep Mind, other
## 00:52:21
**中文**
才能帮助加快安全采用 AI？——好的，这两个问题都很好。第一个问题，我其实会谈两件事。其一是能源状况。无论如何，我们都需要出于安全原因解决能源问题；考虑到 AI 经济即将到来，这件事的重要性更是加倍。英国必须参与其中，必须建设数据中心，并在本土拥有自主的一手基础设施，从而把握机会。其二，就是我们之前谈到的成长瓶颈：英国很擅长把企业培育成独角兽，但怎样才能进一步成长为
**English / Original**
leaders in the ecosystem and institutions such as the City of London Corporation uh to help accelerate safe adoption. >> Right. Okay. So, two good questions. Um I think the first one I probably would talk about um two things actually which is one is the energy situation. I think that needs to be addressed anyway for security, but I think it's doubly important given the AI economy coming down the line. We need to be part of that. We need to build data centers. We need to have that first party stuff here on the ground and take advantage of that. Um the second thing is what we also talked earlier about sorting out how do we get from unic we do very well getting to unicorns. How do we get to
## 00:53:02
**中文**
真正庞大、在全球具有影响力的企业？英国需要拥有若干这样的公司。这是下一项挑战，我认为政府必须参与。证券交易所乃至整个生态系统——也就是你们所在的行业——都需要理顺相关机制，为这种成长创造条件。只要生态系统设置得当，这完全可以实现。至于第二个问题，即还能做什么、如何合作，我认为这类论坛很有价值，这也是我很高兴参加本次活动的原因。与温迪交流也总是很愉快。这类论坛能够把不同领域的人聚到一起；而且我们需要邀请的不应只有技术专家。
**English / Original**
the to the really big global influential companies? We need some of those here. That's the next challenge and I think government has to be part of that. stock exchange, the whole ecosystem, your world needs to sort that out. I think you know to help uh allow for that to happen. So I think it could happen with the right uh uh uh ecosystem. Um and then the second thing on the on the you know what can we do more and collaborate? I mean I think these kinds of forums are good. This is why uh I was delighted to participate in this. I think it's great and it's always fun chatting with Wendy too. these kinds of forums where we bring together but also maybe not just technologists but we need
## 00:53:40
**中文**
这正是伦敦尤其了不起的地方：我们在许多领域都拥有世界一流水平。大家知道，美国的这些优势分散在不同城市：政府在华盛顿特区，金融在纽约，生命科学在波士顿，硅谷有科技，洛杉矶有娱乐；而我们几乎把所有这些世界级能力集中在一座城市里。我一直非常相信跨学科协作，如今更是如此。我认为 AI 能够推动这种协作，因为它可以让你很快掌握另一个学科领域的专业知识。此外，要解决这些问题，我其实完全赞同——
**English / Original**
to this is the amazing thing about London specifically we actually have worldass things in many domains so the US as you know that's split across different cities right and the government's in DC then you've got New York's financing you know life sciences is Boston and so on and then you got Silicon Valley uh and then you got entertainment in LA we have all of that pretty much to a worldclass level in one city and I have always been a huge believer in multi-disiplinary work. I'm even more of a believer in that now and I think AI can enable that because it allows you to get expert quite quickly at some other subject area. And I also think what we need to do uh to solve like actually I totally agree with
## 00:54:22
**中文**
Wendy 刚才的观点；我说哲学，实际上只是用一种比较高深的说法表达同一件事。我们需要有意识地想清楚：在后 AI、后 AGI 的世界里，我们想拥有并建设怎样的社会？不必纠结这个术语，术语并不重要；既然我们争论的也不是术语，那也别纠结时间表。究竟是 5 年、10 年还是 15 年，谁在乎呢？它很快就会到来，会发生在我们或我们孩子的一生之中。这件事一定会发生，所以应当正视它。马已经不会回到马厩，进程正在展开。接下来我们必须决定要怎样应对。未来并未写定；它应由我们这个社会来书写，但前提是我们——
**English / Original**
Wendy's earlier point about that's what I was meaning about philosophy. It was just a highly flutin way of saying it. We need to work out intentionally what sort of society do we want to have and build in a post AI AGI world. Forget the term. The term is irrelevant. When we're not disagreeing about the term, forget the timeline. Who cares if it's 5 10 years, even 15. It's soon. It's in our lifetimes. It's in our kids there's lifetimes. It's going to happen. So just deal with that. That's is that's a given. The horse is not going back into the stable. It's happening. We need to then work out what do we want to do about it. The future is not written. It is not. It's for us society to write that. But only if we
## 00:55:04
**中文**
不要怀着恐惧去面对它。它确实充满挑战，令人害怕，也存在不确定性。甚至可以说，目前没有人掌握答案：大型科技公司的负责人没有，科学家也没有。但这并不意味着答案不存在，而是应由我们整个社会共同决定。我认为，这要求社会各个部分都参与进来，包括人文学科、科学、技术、产业和政府。我认为英国和伦敦完全可以成为这项工作的中心——但前提是我们在经济和技术上足够成功，能够坐上决策桌。
**English / Original**
approach it without fear. We've got to it's it's a challenging thing. It's scary. There's uncertainty. I think even the the no one has the answers. None of the big tech people have the no no scientists have answers yet. But it doesn't mean there aren't answers out there. It's for us as society to decide that. And I think that requires all parts of society to be involved. And I'm meaning the humanities, the science, as well as the sciences and the tech and industry and government. And I think the UK and London could be a center for that actually. Um, but only if we're successful enough economically and technically to have a seat at the table.
## 00:55:39
**中文**
这是先决条件：只有具备这种实力，我们才会拥有别人愿意倾听的话语权。好的，谢谢。下一个问题——你还想补充吗？不用？好。下一位提问者是副会长 Gary Moore。会长，谢谢。你们刚才用了“未来尚未写定”这句话。在 Frank Herbert 的《沙丘》宇宙中，对思维机器的禁令构成了其文明的基础背景；这源自一场灾难性的星际战争，当时人工——
**English / Original**
That's it's all it's that's the prerequisite for then having a voice that others will listen to. >> Okay. [clears throat] Thank you. The next qu uh I mean did you want to just add a bit fine okay um next question deputy master Gary Moore >> master thank you uh interesting you use the words uh the future has not been written um in Frank Herbert's Dune universe the prohibition of thinking machines became a foundational background of that civil civilization it stemmed from a catastrophic interplanetary war uh where artificial
## 00:56:22
**中文**
智能和具有感知能力的机器人奴役了人类。这个问题的开场真够积极的。你们已经谈到过这一点：当我们迈向 AGI，并考虑监管时，鉴于其中一些技术已经开源，你们认为应当如何管理那些不受监管约束的恶意行为者，而不仅仅是愿意遵守监管的人？
**English / Original**
intelligence and sentient robots enslaved humanity. Nice positive start to the question. Uh so you've you've touched on this already uh but as we move to AGI and uh perhaps thinking about regulation do you have any reflections in a world where some of this stuff's already open source [cough] [clears throat] how we manage rogue actors not just those who submit to regulation.
## 00:56:49
**中文**
我们必须制定真正有约束力、能产生实际后果的法律。比如深度伪造，我认为目前没有足以妥善处理它的法律。如果有人盗用他人的形象去制作恶劣内容，这应当属于违法行为；一旦被抓获，判罚就必须真正有力度。这一点很简单。当然还会有更难处理的问题，接下来交给你。
**English / Original**
>> Well we have to pass laws that that have teeth. Well, we've got to that's my I mean we've got we've got to actually I mean take for example deep fakes, right? I don't we don't have laws to deal with these properly. Sorry, I've got we um you know if someone takes someone else's image and does something awful with it, that should be illegal. And when that if if and when they get caught, they there should be teeth in however the sentence is. That's simple. There's going to be harder stuff to deal with. I'm going to you take over.
## 00:57:22
**中文**
当然。人脸深度伪造就是一个很好的例子。我们和其他机构已经开发了不可见水印等技术，它们将成为行业标准。如果政府希望采取行动——我认为这迟早会发生，因为显然应该这样做——除了禁止相关滥用，还应要求任何生成媒体内容的模型内置水印，同时配套检测系统，供政府、记者等使用；最终，网络本身或许应该自动标记生成图像。在我看来，这是一个几乎没有遗憾、显而易见应当采取的措施。
**English / Original**
>> Yeah, sure. So I mean face is a good example of that and and there are technologies like invisible watermarking that we've developed and others that it's going to become an industry standard now that would allow if a government wanted to or and I think this will happen because it seems obvious that should be done you know so only [cough] that outlawing of that um but also making sure that any gen any model that generates media has to have watermarking as part of it and also a detection system that say government can have access to or journalists or you know eventually maybe the web should just automatically flag that up right if this is a this is a generated image seems like that's a to me a no regrets
## 00:58:03
**中文**
至于《沙丘》——如果事情失控，确实可能走向那样的未来。我看过电影，也读过许多科幻作品，却没有读过《沙丘》，或许正是因为它禁绝了 AI；当然还有许多其他原因。不过那几部电影拍得非常好。如果 AI 从一开始就被构建错了，我们可能没有机会恢复原状。我不知道《沙丘》宇宙最后如何解决这个问题，但如果局面严重恶化，我们也许根本无法再把它倒回去。因此，我们必须第一次就做对。既然谈到了科幻，我想说——
**English / Original**
no-brainer thing to do um but look if as to June um which uh you know that's what could happen if things go wrong by the way I I've you know I've watched the film I've read so much sci-fi but I didn't read June maybe for this reason because it banned AI but there were many other you know [laughter] so but I watched the the great movies and um you know we might not get the chance to recover that if AI was built wrong right I don't know how it resolved it in the June universe but um you know if things go badly wrong there may not be potential to kind of just walk that back so we got to get that right first time what I would say is in science fiction there are actually since we brought it
## 00:58:41
**中文**
科幻中其实也有许多伟大的世界设定：人类把事情做对了，实现了最大程度的繁荣，并走向群星。我尤其喜欢科幻作家 Iain M. Banks 和他的“文化”系列。它描绘了大约一千年后的未来：人类已扩展到群星之间，AI 也存在，双方以一种大体和平、彼此互补的方式共处。这只是其中一个例子；其实还有许多值得关注的未来图景。也许——
**English / Original**
up there are many great examples of universes where we humanity did get this right and you know we're kind of like maximum human flourishing to the stars so I would point to Ian Ian Banks as one of my favorite sci-fi novelists and the culture series and that is a depicts a kind of you know a future world maybe a thousand years from now where humanity's spread to the stars and they're also AIs as well but they sort of coexist in this um uh uh uh in this sort of largely peaceful way and and um complimentary way let's say and so that's just one there are many actually interesting visions of what that could be Like maybe
## 00:59:22
**中文**
我们需要更多科幻作家描绘积极的未来，因为许多科幻作品确实会影响科学家后来选择研究什么，历史已经证明了这一点。我每次和科幻作家交流，都会建议他们写一些“硬科幻”，展现一种现实可信的图景：未来 50 到 100 年，我们可能到达哪里、应该朝哪里努力。我认为，我们需要一次富有创造力的思想大爆发，去构想应当建设怎样的社会——假设我们把技术层面的事情做对，并可能进入一个后稀缺世界。
**English / Original**
we need more science fiction authors to to produce positive uh stories about the way it should go cuz actually a lot of science fiction does affect what scientists then think to do, right? I mean this is this has been proven through history. So I think uh we you know we when I speak to a science fiction author I tell them write some sort of hard sci-fi that shows some realistic view of like where we could get to or where we should be trying to aim for in the next 50 to 100 years. I think we need a big um creative explosion of ideas of what sorts of societies should we build assuming we get some of these things right like the technical aspects correct and then we might be in a post scarcity world but
## 01:00:01
**中文**
但后稀缺究竟意味着什么？如果我们解决了聚变、材料科学以及某些根节点问题，那种世界里的经济应当如何运行？我喜欢讨论团队合作。我愿意把 AI 想象成团队的一部分。眼下所有事情似乎都发生得非常快，但其实并不是这样：技术或许进步很快，实际采用的速度却远没有那么快。
**English / Original**
what does that mean you know how should we economics work in that in that sort of world if we solve fusion and material science and some you know root node problems >> I like to talk about teamwork I like to think about AI becoming part of teams so that you I think it will become we're at the it all seems to be happening so fast. It's not actually happening. I mean the technology might be moving on. Adoption is not happening anywhere near as fast.
## 01:00:28
**中文**
是的。我不认为所有工作都会消失，也不认同 Elon Musk 所说“没人还需要工作”之类的话——我认为那是胡扯。工作会发生变化，我们也会逐渐习惯职场中的 AI。它会替代一些人们不得不做的苦差事，这会让所有人受益，人类可以变得更有创造力。例如诊断疾病时，仍然需要人类医生，但 AI 会根据数据提供判断，支持个性化医疗；这会是一种团队合作。
**English / Original**
>> Y >> and um I think it's not that all the jobs are going to disappear. I'm not you know the Elon Musk no one will need to work uh rubbish. um the well I think it is anyway but the um jobs are going to change and I think we will get used to AI in the workplace it will replace I mean some of the grunge work which is done that people have to do um AI will do that and all the will be the better for it humans can we can be more creative but it will be take a you know when you're diagnosing someone's illness you still you need the human doctors but the AI will come along and say yeah this I can tell you from the data this you
## 01:01:11
**中文**
正如我刚才所说，我们必须认识到机器智能与人类智能不同，并且应当为这种差异感到庆幸，把它用于改善社会。你知道，在过去的 20 世纪 60、70 年代，人们谈论计算机时，我想也有类似的感受。我常举父亲的例子。他是一名会计，在一家公司的财务部门工作——当时还不叫财务部，而叫账目部门。他们所有事情都靠手工完成，没有计算器，也没有电脑。他能够在脑中计算旧制英镑、先令和便士之间的除法；一切都记在分类账里，他们的工作就是抄写这些账本。
**English / Original**
know of all the personalized medicine and you know it'll be it'll be a it'll be teamwork and as I said before I think m we have to recognize that machine intelligence and human intelligence different and that we um we we we should rejoice in that right and use it for the betterment of society >> and I guess in the olden times in se in the 60s and 70s people talked about computers in the came light I guess. Um >> well my I always use the example my father was an accountant. He finished his work and he ran a finance well not wasn't called finance. He ran an accounts department in a company and he um they did everything by hand. They had
## 01:01:52
**中文**
那些岗位如今全都消失了。但由于计算器和计算机能够完成许多人类做不到的事情，金融业现在反而有更多岗位。正如 Demis 刚才所说——或者是你说的——AI 将帮助我们完成过去甚至无法想象的事情，我们应当珍惜这一机会。但与此同时，安全措施、防护栏以及无论你愿意怎么称呼的治理机制都必须落实。我们不能停在原地，假定别人会——
**English / Original**
no calculators no computers. He could divide pound shense by pound spence in his head. It was all ledgers. They copied the ledgers all that's what they did. And that those jobs have all gone. But we've, you know, there are more jobs now in the finance industry because of the calculators and computers can do so much that human beings can't do. And this is what Demis said earlier. AI will do things or you said it. I think AI will do things we couldn't even dream of doing before. And we need to relish that opportunity. But we've got to alongside it get the safety and the guard rails and the whatever you want to call it sorted. And we can't sit back on our heels and assume someone else is going
## 01:02:34
**中文**
替我们解决；我们现在就必须行动。
**English / Original**
to do I've got to do it now.
## 01:02:37
**中文**
我们同业公会的支柱之一是慈善事业。下面有一个关于慈善的问题，我想会很有意思。提问者是 AI 专门小组主席 Paul Excell。这里的小组类似委员会，帮助会员交流、改进等。Paul。谢谢，会长。我的问题是：在我们的“AI 服务慈善机构”社区中，现在已有 90 多家慈善组织，它们正在利用 AI 开展非常出色的基础性工作，切实造福所服务的社区；但它们普遍非常担忧，因为这些社区中有许多极为脆弱的人群需要它们支持。
**English / Original**
>> So [clears throat] part of our livery company is uh one of the uh pillars is charity and uh we have a question on charity which I think could be quite interesting. It's going to be uh the chair of the AI panel uh Paul Excel. A panel is like a committee which uh which helps members discuss improve etc. Paul. >> Uh, thank you, master. So, so my question is, uh, across our AI for charities community, we've got over now 90 charities who are doing some absolutely fantastic fundamental work using AI, unleashing real benefits to the communities they serve, but they're
## 01:03:18
**中文**
既然正如你们所说，我们所有人都有机会塑造自己、子女和孙辈未来生活的世界，那么在负责任的 AI、伦理、信任、同理心和保障机制等方面——这些对于防止伤害、产生积极影响至关重要——你们会倡议在座每个人、政府和公民社会采取哪一到三项负责任的行动作为“家庭作业”，以确保全球——
**English / Original**
generally very concerned and worried. I mean, you've got very vulnerable people working in these uh uh that they're supporting in these communities. So given that we to your point we have a chance all of us to shape the future that we our children our grandchildren live in uh and where where would you say things like from a responsible AI ethics trust empathy safeguarding if it's fundamental to prevent harm and deliver positive impact what one to three responsible actions would you advocate to ask us as as homework everyone in this room governments civil society to ensure that the global
## 01:04:00
**中文**
解决方案既服务社会需要，又能带来安全、持续增长和人人共享的机会等所有积极结果？这听起来或许像一个过于乐观的愿景，但伦敦和英国肯定有可能抓住它。这个问题确实不太容易回答。我先说我的首要答案：多样性。
**English / Original**
solutions that both serve the needs of the society but al also can deliver uh security sustained growth opportunity for all all the good things almost like a goss maybe that's too much of a positive vision but surely it's possible us to grasp here in London and the UK >> it's quite a well it's quite a hard question to answer I'm just gonna I'm gonna Just start off by saying my number one would be diversity.
## 01:04:30
**中文**
抱歉，但答案就是这个。有人问我什么事情会让我夜不能寐，并不是 Demis 谈到的那些问题，也不是我经常听到的其他风险，而是这个领域缺乏足够的多样性。正因如此，如果参与建设 AI 世界的人本身缺少多样性，就更难借助 AI 建立一个平等主义的世界。我从性别视角来思考，但这里的多样性确实指最广泛意义上的多样性。我也正在变老。
**English / Original**
I'm sorry but that is when I was asked somewhere what keeps you awake at night. It's not any of the things that I've Deis has been talking about or I hear the um it's it's the fact that we don't have enough we don't have diversity in this in this world and I think it's because of that it' be harder to be build an egalitarian world using AI if you haven't got diversity. And I I I'm looking I'm thinking at it through a gender lens, but I do mean diversity in its widest sense. I'm getting older.
## 01:05:00
**中文**
当然，我们所有人都在变老——这是一句傻乎乎的同义反复。我开始感到有些事情已无法像以前一样去做。我们确实需要思考，怎样让老年人——比如我——从 AI 中受益，也要考虑那些完全接触不到技术的学童。很多方面都要求我们努力为人们创造公平的起点。这恰恰就是我把主题定为“社区”的原因，也正是你刚才表达的内容。
**English / Original**
Well, we all are. That stupid tautology. I'm beginning to feel um you know there are things I can't do like I used to be able to do. And we we really need to think about um how we you know el the elderly like me in in the and are going to get the benefit of AI and you know school kids who have no no access to technology. Yeah, there's so many things where we we we've got to think we've got to try and create a level playing field for people >> and that's exactly where where my [clears throat] theme of community came out. Exactly what you've just been articulating.
## 01:05:40
**中文**
好的。我们只提出了一项，你最优先的答案是什么？这很棘手。我主要思考的是全球治理层面必须发生什么，这显然会影响所有事情。但正如 Wendy 所说，自下而上的基层工作同样至关重要。我们已经谈到许多主题：教育、确保人们获得再培训，这些都是社区层面的事情；课程也必须更新。我已经说过自己会怎样做，你们或许赞成，也或许不赞成，也许你们有办法推动它。我没有时间亲自——
**English / Original**
>> Okay. >> Well, we only came up with one. What's your top one's question? >> Well, it's a it's a tricky one. You know, I I I'm thinking mostly about what needs to happen at the the sort of global governance scale like which obviously will affect everything. Um, but I think the bottom up grassroots aspect is critical too in the way Wendy said, but we've touched on a lot of themes. Education, making sure people are reskilled. These are all community level things, right? That the the curriculum is updated. I've I've told you what I would do. You know, maybe you agree with that. Maybe there's some way you can influence that. I'm I'm not going to be a, you know, have time to do
## 01:06:15
**中文**
去做，但总得有人去做。
**English / Original**
that, but someone should be doing that.
## 01:06:17
**中文**
因此，具体行动取决于各位会员关注什么。不过我认为，应当帮助慈善机构掌握这些技术并真正利用这些工具。AI 很适合处理大量后台事务——慈善机构不得不为此投入资金和人力；如果这些工作得到自动化，它们就能把更多资金和时间直接用于帮助社区中的人。据我了解，慈善机构有大量资源花在筹款和后台管理上，若能转到一线会更好。因此我们需要上下两种方向的努力，而且希望它们最终能够汇合：一边是——
**English / Original**
So, um, depends what the interests are of your members. But um I think helping charities get up to speed on these things and take advantage actually of these tools, right? So um it should be great for a lot of things like back office things, stuff that charities have to do and spend money on so that they can spend their money and time on the on the on the um you know helping the the community people themselves, right? A lot of resources as I understand in charities, you know, to do with fundraising in the back office, but be better if it was frontline. So, I think that those things you we we're going to need both uh things and hopefully they'll converge, right? The the the
## 01:06:52
**中文**
前沿实验室、超级大国参与的全球治理层面，另一边是社区层面。英国或许又能在这方面率先示范。我们在南安普敦开展了一个城市项目，希望把南安普敦建设成“AI 卓越城市”，但采取的是自下而上的方式。例如在慈善领域，我们举办快闪工作坊：邀请某个行业的专家，也邀请慈善领域的从业者参加。这类活动大致可以叫作“关于 AI，你一直想问却不敢问的一切”——我刚才差点把 Woody Allen 的电影名说出来。
**English / Original**
sort of global governance scale with the frontier labs and the superpowers and then community scale and again maybe this is something we can lead the way on here in the UK. >> We have a civic project in Southampton um where we're taking um we talk about making a Southampton a an AI city of excellence but we're doing it from the grassroots up. So for example in the charity sector we we do popups actually I do pop-ups and we we take um some experts in a sector and we have a pop-up workshop and we invite people from so we have one for the charity sector and it's a sort of come along you know what was that Woody Allen film everything you want no was that no that wasn't I
## 01:07:34
**中文**
说真的，我们会鼓励那些感到脆弱、恐惧或担忧的人参与，以慈善工作者社区的方式与他们交流，并分享慈善机构利用 AI 扩大传播的最佳实践案例。我们已经在三个领域开展了这类活动，还会继续扩展。这项工作的核心就是认知与教育。
**English / Original**
shouldn't do that go there was it um everything you wanted to know about AI but we're afraid to ask okay and um And seriously, so we encourage people to come who feel very vulnerable or frightened or scared and we talk to them as a community of say the of charity workers about and we get examples of best practice of people who are working in charities and they're using AI to spread the word and we've done that in three sectors now. We're doing more of it. Um it's it it's about awareness and education.
## 01:08:12
**中文**
很好。下一个问题来自同业成员 Nicholas Bill。非常感谢二位。我认为几个月后会出现这样一种局面：西方所有大型 AI 开发商都会成为上市公司，对投资者负有责任；而能够以万亿美元规模运作、与这些公司体量相当的参与者，只有全球大型投资机构。显然，它们有一个共同的重大利益：不希望自己的任何投资爆雷。
**English / Original**
Super. I [clears throat] have another question from uh Liverman Nicholas Bill. Nicholas, this is >> Thank you very much indeed both of you. Um we're going to have a situation I think in a few months time where all the western big AI developers are publicly listed companies with the responsibility to their investors and the big global investors are the only players that you know operate at the scale of trillions comparable to the um companies and they clearly have a big common interest in having none of their investments blow
## 01:08:52
**中文**
因此，我想问二位，尤其是 Demis：投资者可以做什么来鼓励负责任的行为？他们或许能够非常有效地缓解博弈论上的难题。这个观点非常好。我认为投资者其实可以施加比现在大得多的影响力。问题是，能进入这些融资轮次往往利润极其可观，据我了解，条款通常已经定好，你只能接受或放弃；而且你又不能错过——
**English / Original**
up. So I guess my question to both of you perhaps particularly Demis is what can the investors do to help encourage the responsible behavior because they may be able to help the game theoretic uh issue rather effectively. >> Yeah, I think that's a great uh point actually. So um I think that investors could exercise a lot more um influence than they probably do. I think the problem is it's so lucrative to get into those funding rounds um that you know they sort of the terms are basically there and it's take it or leave it as I understand it right and so and you can't
## 01:09:34
**中文**
这样的“火箭式增长”公司——其中一家甚至真的是火箭公司。此类企业究竟有多少？并不多，可能只有寥寥几家，所以这会使力量平衡发生偏斜。此外，许多公司采用特殊的控制权结构，即便上市，也不一定真正受股东约束。不过公平地说，普通投资者主要关心回报，所以我不知道我们是否还应进一步强化纯经济激励；它本来就是问题的一部分。也许有办法绕开这一点。我希望的是，在智能体时代，市场能够出现一定程度的自我纠正。
**English / Original**
really miss out because how many of these um uh rocket ship companies are well literally in one case but how many of them are there uh not that many right maybe just a handful and so um that's I think skews the balance a bit also a lot of them have unusual control structures obviously where in fact they're not beholden to the shareholders even when they float. So >> maybe but I mean look the average investor though just to be fair is mostly cares about their returns. So I don't know if that we want any, you know, even further just purely economic incentive. I think that's already part of the problem. Perhaps um there's some way around that and maybe when what I'm hoping is the market will self-correct a
## 01:10:13
**中文**
设想一家领先的前沿模型实验室想向金融服务公司提供智能体，金融机构一定会要求对这些智能体的防护栏作出保证：它们会做什么、如何处理客户数据。你绝不能让某个智能体因为目标函数设定错误而下了一笔交易，第二天就让你损失 10 亿美元。因此我怀疑，某些未配置适当防护栏的提供商可能会发生这类错误；之后市场就会发挥作用，转而激励——
**English / Original**
bit in the agentic era because if you imagine that one of the leading frontier model labs wants to provide agents for uh a financial service company for example, I would imagine the financial service companies will want some guarantees around the guard rails around those agents. what they'll do, what they'll do with their client data. You know, you can't have one of them putting a trade on that you loses you a billion dollars the next day because of some uh uh misspecified goal function. So what I suspect will happen is maybe uh some sort of error like that will happen uh with the companies that are providing things without the right guardrails and then those the market will do its the
## 01:10:54
**中文**
负责任的行为，尤其是在那些受监管、同时也往往最有价值的行业。这或许是一件好事。随着这些技术在商业上变得更有用、更可行，特别是企业应用首次真正兴起，这正是其中的一线希望。我们此前看到的主要是消费者应用，如今企业市场也开始发展，这可能让激励机制以非常有利于负责任部署的方式实现一致。我认为这种情况相当可能发生。投资者以及企业——
**English / Original**
correct thing and incentivize actually um uh uh uh responsible behavior especially in the regulated industries which are also somewhat the most valuable. So I think it could be good actually. That's the kind of silver lining with with these technologies becoming more commercially useful and viable especially in enterprise which is what we're seeing now kind of for the first time. We sort of saw the consumer part of it but there's also now enterprise and that may actually then line up incentives in a way that's actually really good for responsible deployment. So that's I think pretty likely to happen actually and I think investors could uh and also enterprises
## 01:11:35
**中文**
比如大型银行和其他公司的 CTO、CIO——应当运用自身影响力和采购能力支持那些你们认为行事负责任的供应商。当然，不能牺牲质量。普通消费者也一样：可以用钱投票、用脚投票，善用市场力量施加压力，支持那些行事方式及领导者价值观更符合你所期待世界的公司和实验室。
**English / Original**
that are you know CTO's and CIOS of of big banks and other companies. You should be using your power and your purchasing power to support providers. Obviously you're not going to compromise on quality but support providers that you believe are acting responsibly. That's what you can do. And I also say that to the average person in the street even as like well even as a consumer you could vote with your your your dollars and vote with your feet in terms of and use the market forces for good to put pressure to to support companies and and and labs that are doing things in ways uh and with leaders that that maybe reflect the values that you would like to see in the world. And I think as
## 01:12:15
**中文**
随着这些系统商业化，我希望投资者和企业确实会这样做。这也可以与我们最终共同建立的全球 AI 治理组织相结合。无论最终形成的是章程、条约还是其他机制，投资者都可以说：如果你的公司不签署，我们就不投资。下面是最后一个问题，来自英国资历最深的卖方分析师、同业成员 Richard Holway。是的。昨天我写了一篇——
**English / Original**
these systems become more commercial I hope that's what investors and enterprises will do. I think it could be tied too to whatever organization we collectively managed to set up to do governance of AI um across the world because you could I don't know if charter or treaties or whatever will come out of that and the investors could say if your company doesn't sign up to this then we're not going to invest in you for example >> I'm going to go to one last question and this question is from the cell style oldest analyst in the UK liver man, Richard Hallway. [snorts] >> Um yes indeed. Um yesterday I wrote an
## 01:12:56
**中文**
文章，庆祝 Computacenter 进入富时 100 指数；它只是其中第二家科技公司。在全球按市值排名前 100 的科技公司中，英国只有一家 ARM，而且它实际是在纳斯达克上市。如果 DeepMind 当年走向 IPO，我敢保证它如今会进入富时 100，甚至可能位居榜首。它还可能成为催化剂，带动许多其他英国公司走上同一条道路，并像硅谷那样在周围建设起基础设施和生态系统。
**English / Original**
article celebrating um computer center entering the Footsie 100, only the second tech company to be there. Indeed, in the um list of the top 100 um tech companies by market capitalization, um the UK only has one and that is ARM and that is actually listed on NASDAQ. Now, if Deep Mind had actually gone on for an IPO, I guarantee that you would currently be in the Footsie 100. In fact, you might even be leading it. And and and indeed, um you might have acted as a catalyst to many other UK companies to follow the same route and you would have built the infrastructure and ecosystem around it just as they have in
## 01:13:38
**中文**
我想听听你的看法；我想大家都知道我的观点。是的，这是另一条历史线。你在 2014 年身在何处，我不知道；也不知道当时你是否愿意给我们数十亿美元的支持，也许你会，但我当时找不到这样的资金。2014 年在 AI 领域几乎是另一个世界，那时仍然只有我们在做这件事。
**English / Original**
Silicon Valley and whatever. And I wonder what your views were about that. I think everybody knows what mine are. >> Yes. [laughter] Well, the alternate history. Yes, sure. Well, look, you you you I don't know where [clears throat] where you were in 2014. I don't know if you would have backed us with several billion dollars back then. Maybe you would have done, but um I couldn't find So, back in 2014, which is another world in AI terms. We were still the only people doing it.
## 01:14:02
**中文**
那是在 OpenAI 成立之前，也是在我们做出 AlphaGo 之前。我们当时只有 Atari 游戏，人们会问：“你们不就是在玩《太空侵略者》吗？这有什么重要的？”但必须说明，Google 理解它的重要性，尤其是 Larry Page。我非常认可他的远见，因为他本人始终对 AI 感兴趣，并把 Google 看作一家 AI 公司。我选择出售公司，是因为我知道，要与那些巨头竞争并成长为同等级别的公司，需要大约 70 亿美元投资；而当时我连一轮 1,000 万美元融资都很难凑齐。问题在于，我们在 Atari 上的成果已经——
**English / Original**
This is before Open AI was set up, before we done Alph Go, we just had the Atari games, you know, and people were like, "What is, you know, you're playing Space Invaders. Why is that important?" And but you know Google understood the importance of that to be clear. Larry Page specifically, right? So I give him a lot of credit on that because he himself always was interested in AI. He saw Google as an AI company. The reason I sold was I knew it would require $7 billion of investment in order to take on try and become one of those companies. And I was barely be able to scrape together $10 million rounds at that point. And the problem was is that we' done enough the Atari thing had
## 01:14:40
**中文**
惊动了足够多的硅谷巨头，他们开始挖我的团队。如果我要继续独立，就必须找到资金；而我们当时没有业务，甚至没有产品——当然没有，因为我正努力开发核心技术。那时我给自己发的工资是零，员工年薪大约 10 万美元，却收到年薪 1,000 万美元的邀约。我开始意识到，即使这还挖不走人，对方也完全有能力回来开出 5,000 万美元。事情迟早会失控。当时 SoftBank 以及一些大型风投还没有开始进行十亿美元规模的融资。
**English / Original**
alerted enough of the Silicon Valley titans. They were coming after my people. So if I had to find and we had no business. We didn't even have a product. Obviously not cuz I was trying to make the core technology. And so that thing I was telling you is I was paying I was paying myself zero and people were being paid like you know 100k a year and then they were getting offers of 10 million a year. So I could sort of I was sort of thinking and then they could if that didn't work what they could they could afford to come back and say here's 50 million a year. So at some point that was going to go wrong and at the time this was before Soft Bank and some of the big VCs had were doing billion
## 01:15:16
**中文**
我的时机稍微差了一点。如果我们能撑到 2015 或 2016 年，也许就能完成那种规模的融资——不幸的是不会来自英国投资者，但可以从一些更大胆、资金实力足够的投资者那里获得；只是 2014 年还没有这种条件。不过我不后悔出售的另一个原因，是我想回归研究和科学。你很难同时做两件事：一边为初创公司融资、操心产品，一边完成 AlphaGo 和 AlphaFold 这样的项目。若继续独立，我永远不可能做到这些。所以我一刻也没有后悔，因为对我而言，最重要的始终是研究——
**English / Original**
dollar rounds. I was slightly out I was slightly unlucky with the timing because if if I if I maybe if we'd held on 2015 16 I could have done a fundraising round like that. um wouldn't have been British investors unfortunately but I could have got it from some of the more out there uh investors uh that had the firepower but that just wasn't available in 2014 but the other reason that I don't regret it is I wanted to get back to the research and the science and you it's very hard to do two like fund raise for a startup worry about product and then do something like alpha go and alpha fold I would never so I don't regret it for a moment because I want I always for me it was always about the research and
## 01:15:55
**中文**
和技术及其能够产生的价值，而不是金钱、权力之类。我承认，另一条道路也许对英国、甚至对我的银行余额更好，但无论给我多少钱，我都不会拿诺贝尔奖去交换，真的，任何金额都不行。全世界已有 300 万名研究人员在重要的生物医学研究中使用 AlphaFold。一位领先的制药界朋友告诉我，未来可能不会再有哪种新药的研发过程完全没用到 AlphaFold。我对此非常自豪；这是在英国创造的成果。我认为——
**English / Original**
the technology ology and what it could do rather than the money or the power and the things like that. I appreciate it would be better for Britain but but but but maybe for my bank balance but I wouldn't swap my Nobel for example for any amount of money you could give me literally any amount so you know and the what I've seen 3 million researchers around the world have used alphafold in their important um biomedical research you know a farmer uh leading farmer friend of mine said there won't be you know there probably won't be a drug invented in the future that hasn't used alpha fold somewhere in their process so I'm very proud of that I think it's something built here in Britain. I think
## 01:16:32
**中文**
我们应当为这一科学成就感到自豪。谁知道呢，也许我会通过 Isomorphic Labs 完成尚未完成的那部分使命，这本来就是计划的一部分，对吧？公司总部完全设在这里。不过，我们必须解决当前证券交易所存在的问题：为什么企业不愿在这里上市？我不知道原因，但必须解决。过几年我会再来找你，我们可以继续谈。
**English / Original**
we should be proud of that scientific fact. And uh look, who knows? Maybe I'll complete the job with isomorphic. [laughter] That's kind of part of the plan, right? Head fully headquartered here. And um but we need to fix whatever the problem is with the stock exchange right now. Why are companies not floating on there? I don't know what. Yeah. So, we need to fix that. I'll come to you in a few years time and we can talk about it.
## 01:16:55
**中文**
我想赞扬一下 Demis。我认为英国从 Demis 所做的一切中获益巨大，这是显而易见的。我们不必探讨那条平行或替代历史，因为英国已经从他在 DeepMind 的工作中得到实实在在的收益。我经常去加州，下周也会去 Google；正是因为这个人，我们英国人在加州很有地位。
**English / Original**
So I I just I'd like to just say in praise of Demis that I think the UK's done hugely well out of what Demis has done. Um it's obvious and I don't think we should explore the parallel or the alternate you because the UK benefits from what you've done with Deep Mind and I go to California. I go I'm out there next week. I go to Google and [snorts] we ride high >> in California because of this man.
## 01:17:20
**中文**
对。你们现在也开始在东南亚拓展。是的。更何况，这项合作已经为英国带来数十亿美元投资、高技能岗位、人才和其他收益。不过，实际正在呈现的是：虽然看上去所有公司都在做同一类技术，它们其实正逐渐成为不同类型的参与者。
**English / Original**
Right. Um, and you're starting out in Southeast Asia now. Yeah. >> And also, I mean, you got you got billions of dollars of investment have come into the UK because of this partnership, right? And high power jobs and talent and other things. >> But what's actually um emerging is that the whilst it feels like all the companies and they're all doing the same sort of technology, they're actually emerging as different types of players.
## 01:17:46
**中文**
我一直这样说。比如 Microsoft——我不知道 OpenAI 接下来会怎样——我们日常使用 Office，就已经在通过它接触 AI；Anthropic 也有自己的专长。因此，我们会看到不同类型的公司发展出来。我不喜欢把它描述成一场只能有一个赢家的竞赛。无论有没有 Demis，我一直都更看好 Google，因为我认同它的价值观，而且它拥有搜索引擎和数据。我也非常喜欢 Gemini，它是我的最爱。这并不是因为我现在坐在 Demis 旁边。事实上，这不是一场——
**English / Original**
>> I've always said this. you know that um you see well I don't know what's happening to open AI but the the Microsoft you know we're getting all that through our through just using office and anthropics got its particular specialtities and we're going to see this type so I don't like to make it I've my my money has always been on Google with or without Demis because I like their values they and and they've had the search engine they've got you know the data and it's all I love Gemini actually it's my fave and uh It's always been where my money is. But and I'm not just saying it because I'm sitting next to Dumbus. It's um but um you know we it isn't a race that there'll be one winner
## 01:18:27
**中文**
只会产生一个赢家的竞赛。未来会出现许多不同类型的 AI 公司，我对我们将如何运用这些技术感到非常兴奋。在致谢之前，我想邀请 HSBC Innovation Banking 首席执行官 Emily Turner 最后讲几句话。我们还得感谢你们送的充电宝，对吧？
**English / Original**
of actually. Um and it will there will be many different types of of AI companies that emerge. I find that whole thing really exciting what we're going to do with it. Well, before I say my thanks, I'd just like to invite uh Emily Turner, CEO of HSBC Innovation Banking, for a last few words. >> We've got to thank you for the power banks, have we?
## 01:18:52
**中文**
谢谢。我是学者，向来不会拒绝免费赠品。如果还想要更多周边，后面应该还有，我们可以安排。请大家与我一起感谢今天备受尊敬的两位嘉宾，感谢他们带来这场精彩讨论：Sir Demis 和 Dame Wendy，非常感谢。也要感谢 Worshipful Company of Information Technologists 今天接待我们。相信大家和我一样，都感受到一种强烈而美妙的对照：身处这样一座漂亮的历史建筑，置身于这个历史悠久的组织，却讨论着今天这个前沿主题。
**English / Original**
>> Thank you. >> Thank you. I'm an academic. I'll always take a freebie. [laughter] >> Well, if you want more merch, I think we have some in the back. So, can can work that out. Uh please join me in thanking um our esteemed panelists today for what was an amazing discussion. So sir Demis and Dwendy thank you so much. [applause] [applause] I obviously also want to thank the worshipful company of information technologists for hosting us today. Um I'm sure everyone like me felt the great juxosition of coming into a beautiful
## 01:19:33
**中文**
对于不了解我们的朋友，我简单介绍一下：HSBC Innovation Banking 是一家扎根英国、专门服务创新经济的银行。我们为英国的 4,000 家创新企业、创业者和投资者提供服务。正如今天大家所说、也正如在座各位所了解的，这是投身创新经济的绝佳时代；尤其是在英国，人才、多元思维、不同领域的专业能力——正如 Demis 所说——以及雄心在这里汇聚，这是一个非凡的时刻。
**English / Original**
building like this and the history of the organization along with the topic today and I you know just an amazing piece. Um for those of you who don't know us just very quickly um HSBC Innovation Banking we are a UK purpose-built bank to serve the innovation economy. We work with 4,000 innovators, entrepreneurs and investors in this country. And you know, as everyone talked about today, as everyone here knows, this is an amazing time to work in the innovation economy and importantly in the UK where we have the confluence of talent, of diversity of thinking, of diversity of domains and expertise as Demis mentioned, of ambition as as you clearly articulated um and it's an amazing moment. In the
## 01:20:15
**中文**
仅今年第一季度，英国 74% 的风险投资资金就流向了 AI 公司，相比几年前大幅增长。刚才有人提出一个假设性问题：如果 DeepMind 当年保持独立会怎样。我想指出，仅第一季度，英国融资总额中就有超过 10% 流向了由 DeepMind 离职人员在英国创办的公司。因此，DeepMind 对英国经济的重要影响已经十分清楚；下一家不只是独角兽、而是十角兽级别的企业很可能也会带有 DeepMind 的印记。我只是想特别指出这一点。对我而言，相信对在座各位也一样，今天能参与讨论、聆听——
**English / Original**
first quarter alone, 74% of VC dollars in this country went into AI companies, which is a massive increase on just a few years ago. Um I know there was the sort of theoretical question on what would have happened if DeepMind had stayed here. I will call out that over 10% of the funding in the first quarter alone came from companies in the UK started by people who left deep mind. So I think the story of Deep Mind and its in importance on this economy and will the next not just unicorn but decacorn come here probably will have its fingerprints linked to deep mind. So just wanted to call that out. um certainly for me but I'm sure for everyone else here it's been amazing to be part of the discussion today to hear
## 01:20:55
**中文**
这些把我们带到今天的人发言，尤其是听到你们三位对未来方向所发挥的重要作用，确实非常难得。请大家留下来参加酒会，继续交流；如果刚才的问题没有得到回答，希望稍后还能找到合适的人继续探讨。谢谢大家，也再次感谢我们的嘉宾。最后，我只想对同业成员 Sir Demis Hassabis 和 Dame Wendy Hall 说：希望这不是我们最后一次在本公会见到二位，欢迎你们随时参加我们的任何活动。
**English / Original**
from people who got us to where we are today in this space but importantly are playing such a huge role all three of you and where we go tomorrow. So please join us for drinks. Let's continue the discussion um and if you didn't have questions answered um hopefully people will be around to continue it then. So thank you all and thank you to our panelists. [applause] So all that remains for me to say Liverman Sir Deis Havis and Liverman De Wendy Hall I hope this is not not the last time we see you in our in our company and our livery but please do
## 01:21:35
**中文**
你们永远都会受到欢迎。女士们、先生们，请大家再次以热烈掌声感谢 Sir Demis 和 Dame Wendy！今天一如既往地令人愉快。
**English / Original**
free feel free to join us at any of our events. You'll be more than welcome. Ladies and gentlemen, can I ask you one more time to give Sadis Deendi a big take up? Always fun. [applause]