# (77) Sam Altman - How to Start a Startup - YouTube
- Transcript ID: `vv3ceas_w34`
- Source tier: `youtube_auto`
- Original language: `en_or_source_language_unlabeled`
- Translation status: `agent_translated_reviewed` (140/140 chunks)
- Original source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv3CEAS_w34
- Raw evidence: `data/transcripts/youtube/sam-altman-relentless-2026-Vv3CEAS_w34.json`
> 中文是派生翻译，英文是留存的源文本。中文未复核时，以英文和原始音视频为准。
## 00:00:00
**中文**
今天我采访的是 OpenAI 联合创始人 Sam Altman。很久以前，你曾在斯坦福做过一场关于如何创办初创公司的演讲。与十年前最初做那些演讲时相比，最大的变化是什么？ >> 显然是 AI。如今，一小群人所能完成的事情，以及完成这些事情的速度，都发生了巨大变化。不只是“能做什么”变了；考虑到世界已经改变了这么多，为保持竞争力“必须做什么”也变了，感觉完全不同。现在，一家成立仅十周的初创公司能做到什么程度，令我惊叹；而如果你还像十年前那种成立十周的初创公司，处境就不妙了。
**English / Original**
Today I'm sitting down with Sam Alman, the co-founder of OpenAI. A long time ago, you talked or did a talk at Stanford focused on how to start a startup. What is the biggest thing that has kind of shifted over the past like 10 years since you initially did those talks? >> Clearly AI uh and what is possible to do now with a small team of people has and the speed with which you can do it. Uh and also not only what's possible but like what you have to do to be competitive given how much the world has shifted. uh feels totally different. Um it is amazing to me what a 10-week old startup now can look like. Um and also if you look like a 10-week old startup from 10 years ago, you sort of are in bad shape.
## 00:00:40
**中文**
>> 如果您今天回想一下您脑海中的 10 家老初创公司，那么哪一家是发展速度极快的初创公司的最佳例子？ >> 我什至不知道他们叫什么，但我遇到了一家大约两周前成立的初创公司，类似的东西，它有一个完全重做的办公生产力套件，无论如何。这一切都是为了一个人工智能必须能够使用文档、演示文稿、电子表格等的世界。作为一流的消费者，呃我不知道，我觉得对于最近的一家初创公司来说，这将是一年的工作量。
**English / Original**
>> If you think of the 10e old startup in your mind today, what is the one that is the best example of a startup that moved extremely quickly? >> I don't even know what they're called, but I met a what will be a startup that is like 2 weeks old, something like that, that has an entirely redone um sort of office productivity suite, whatever. all made for like a world where AI has got to be able to use documents, presentations, spreadsheets, whatever. As a first class consumer and uh I don't know, I felt like it would have been a year's worth of work for a startup pretty recently.
## 00:01:12
**中文**
>> 我认为，如果启动初创公司的类似障碍和类似的工具变得更加激增，所有这些东西，你会认为像更困难的初创公司更容易启动。成为一家艰难的初创公司意味着什么，它的变化如此之快，以至于我认为我没有一个完美的心智模型来解释多年来如何建立一家非常成功的公司。什么将是真正困难和真正有价值的事情，就像你知道的那样，我听到很多人说，物理世界中的任何东西现在都非常有价值，因为软件将变得免费，但你知道，在机器人变得非常好和很多之前，不会太久
**English / Original**
>> I would assume that if the like barriers to starting startups and the like tools out there become more proliferated and all this stuff, you would assume that like harder startups are easier to start. What it means to be a hard startup is changing so incredibly quickly that I don't think I have a perfect mental model for what over the many years that it takes to build a very successful company. what are going to be the really hard and really valuable things like you know I've heard a lot of people say well anything in the physical world is extra valuable right now because software is going to become free but you know like won't be that long until robots get really good and a lot
## 00:01:53
**中文**
你知道，制造火箭或任何可能发生巨大变化的东西真的很困难，我喜欢这样的时代，我认为初创公司在地面变化最大、成本迅速下降、周期时间迅速缩短时，他们拥有最大的优势。我认为，那时初创公司确实拥有巨大的固有优势。这种情况现在在很多地方同时发生，似乎是创业的好时机。然而大多数初创公司都会说，我要为企业垂直领域构建人工智能代理。现在，
**English / Original**
of the expectations of you know it's really difficult to make rockets or whatever that may change like quite dramatically I love times like this I think startups are they have the biggest edge when the ground is shifting the most um and when costs are coming down rapidly and cycle times are coming down rapidly. That's when startups really, I think, just have a a massive inherent advantage. And that's happening in so many places at once right now that it seems like a great time to be doing startups. And yet most startups are like, I'm going to go build AI agents for enterprise vertical X. Now,
## 00:02:33
**中文**
这实际上在很多情况下都有效。它将非常有竞争力，而且可能不像我所说的那样，它可能不会像那个时代最成功的初创公司那样。嗯，但它会起作用。但是，考虑到环境的变化程度，我很惊讶没有更多的人像我一样用这套全新的工具来应对疯狂的事情。并且愿意真正内化这样一个事实：缩放法则将继续存在，并计划本月不可能或不经济但在两年、四年或无论如何后可能实现的事情。所以，这似乎是一个
**English / Original**
that actually will work in a lot of cases. It'll be very competitive and it may not be like in fact I'd say it probably won't be like the most successful defining startups of that era. Um but it will work. But but given how much the landscape is in flux, I am surprised there are not more people doing the like I'm going to go take on the crazy the crazy thing with this completely new set of tools. and also being willing to truly internalize the fact that scaling laws are going to continue and planning for the things that are not possible or economical this month but will be possible in 2 years, four years, whatever. So, it seems like an
## 00:03:14
**中文**
这是一个令人难以置信的创业时机，机会沃土非常广阔。不过——如果有人选择这么做，我并无评判之意——人们确实极易受到诱惑，只把今天的智能体应用到那些唾手可得的场景，我也理解这种选择。多年来你一直说，每当认识一个新人时，你会先在自己的心智模型中判断他处在什么位置；下一次见面时，再观察他取得了多大、又多快的进步。
**English / Original**
unbelievable time to be starting startups and there's very fertile ground but there's also and I no judgment if this is what people go for. There's this incredible temptation to just like go apply today's agents to the easy wins and I get it. One thing that you've said throughout the years is you basically try to whenever you meet someone new, you try to like plot where they are on your mental model of who they are as a person and then the next time that you meet them, you basically want to figure out how far or how fast they progressed.
## 00:03:44
**中文**
>> 做过类似的事情，比如在可能成千上万的人身上做这件事，会影响你的能力，让你说，好吧，模型今天这么智能，3 个月后也这么智能。突然间，你可以把这件事画出来，这让你很容易相信增长。我认为这两者背后都有一个共同点，那就是我对人、公司或模型的指数产生了极大的信任。嗯，我不认为，至少在主观上，观看模型的进展与观看创始人的发展并不相同，但我认为关于世界的基本信念体系是相同的。如果我是
**English / Original**
>> Did that sort of thing and like doing this across maybe thousands of people impact your ability to kind of say, okay, the model is this intelligent today, it's this intelligent 3 months later. Suddenly you can like plot this out and it makes it easy to believe in the growth. I think there's like a general thing behind both of those which is I just like I developed a great trust in exponentials in people or companies or models. Um I don't I don't think that subjectively at least it doesn't feel like watching model progress is the same as like watching a founder develop but I think the underlying belief system about the world is is the same. If I were
## 00:04:25
**中文**
仍在为初创公司创始人提供建议，这是我试图让他们明白的最重要的事情。出于同样的原因，这显然很困难，因为市场上有免费的资金可以押注于高增长的年轻创始人。市场似乎还没有足够适应这一点。嗯，我认为市场还没有足够适应，模型的指数级进步将继续下去。现在就开始研究需要更智能或更便宜模型的事情是可以的。
**English / Original**
still advising startup founders, this is the most important thing I would try to get them to wrap their heads around. And it is evidently hard for the same reason that there's like free money left in the market for betting on high growth young founders. And it's like one of the market has still not adapted enough for that. Um I think the market has also still not adapted enough for like the exponential of model progress is going to continue. And it is okay to start working on things now that require smarter or cheaper models.
## 00:04:57
**中文**
>> 面对这种不断变化的混乱，怎样才能变得擅长？如何学会在混乱环境中运作？ >> 我认为只能靠练习。有些事情，无论你在理智上理解得多么透彻，仍需要反复经历，才能在情绪上承受得住：身处大量混乱之中，仍相信自己会想出办法、事情会没事；相信这不会成为击垮你的那件事。你还不知道具体怎样解决，但终究会解决。在我看来，这只能亲身经历后学会。
**English / Original**
>> This idea of constantly shifting chaos, how do you get good at it? How do you get good at operating in a chaotic environment? >> I think it's just practice. There are a handful of things that I think no matter how much you intellectually understand take a lot of reps to like emotionally be able to handle and operating in a lot of chaos and trusting that you'll figure it out and it'll be okay and like this is not going to be the thing that kills you and you don't quite yet know how you're going to solve it but you're going to figure it out. This seems to me to be something that you can only learn by going through it. Um,
## 00:05:39
**中文**
事实上，我认为这是年轻创始人的真正弱点，因为他们没有获得情感平静的职业经验。因此，他们在早期经历了一段非常困难的时期，然后他们最终学会了它，但你知道巨大的痛苦和成本以及非受迫性错误。你肯定会的，如果你最终从事的是一份高压力、有影响力的工作，你一定会学会如何处理混乱并通过它很好地发挥作用。
**English / Original**
and I actually think this is a real weakness of young founders is that they have not had the career experience of getting to emotional peace with this. And so they have a very hard time with it in the early days and then and then they eventually learn it but at you know great pain and cost and unforced errors. You definitely will, if you end up in a high stress sort of impactful job, you will definitely learn how to deal with chaos and function very well through it.
## 00:06:08
**中文**
至少大多数人会，但我认为这是不可教的。我认为这只是可以学习的。你很久以前说过一件有趣的事情，这基本上就像你第一次经历这个公司杀戮事件一样，呃，感觉世界正在分崩离析，然后你挺过来了，然后到了第十次，情况就没那么糟糕了，你会说，好吧，我在前九次中幸存下来，这一次可能没那么糟糕。
**English / Original**
At least most people will, but I don't think it's teachable. I think it's only learnable. You had an interesting thing that you said a long time ago, which is basically like the first time that you experience this company killing event, uh, feels like the world's falling apart and then you make it through and then by the 10th time it's not nearly as bad and you're like, well, I survived the first nine, this one's probably not that bad.
## 00:06:28
**中文**
你也有另一个想法，你在某个时候说过，我想就像一两年前，你得出的结论总是会出错，所以你必须喜欢内化经历痛苦的乐趣，或者喜欢不发生伟大的事情。呃，你是如何实现这种转变的？早些时候，当你说我在 YC 办公时间时，我总能分辨出谁是新创始人 >> 因为他们对与创始人相比出现严重错误的事情的反应方式，因为我经常不知道一家公司有多新，但我可以分辨出它是否像批次中的创始人与一直在做这件事的创始人
**English / Original**
You also had this other idea where you said at some point, I think it was like a year or two ago, you came to the conclusion that was always going to be going wrong and so you kind of had to like internalize the enjoyment of experiencing pain or like not great things happening. Uh, how did you make that transition? I was reflecting earlier when you were saying this about how when I would do office hours at YC, I could always tell who the new founders were >> because of the way that they reacted to stuff going horribly wrong versus the founder because I often didn't know like how new a company was, but I could tell if it was like a founder in the batch versus a founder that been doing this
## 00:07:03
**中文**
做了几年之后，创始人谈起问题时的情绪状态就不同了。我认为大多数人会把“糟糕经历”的反面视为“美好经历”，自然更愿意选择后者，因为它似乎更有趣、更愉快。但如果你认为糟糕经历的反面其实是“没有任何体验”，而在并不遥远的未来，我们每个人最终都会进入那种没有体验的状态，那么你也可以对糟糕经历心怀感激。Naval Ravikant 曾说过一句我很喜欢的话：
**English / Original**
for a couple of years by their like emotional state when they talked about a problem. Um, I think most people think about the opposite of a bad experience as a good experience and they would rather have the good experience um because seems like more fun or more pleasant or whatever. But if you think about like the opposite of a bad experience is no experience and at some point in the notistant future you'll be in no experience land. uh then you know you can be grateful for the bad experience too. Naval Ravakant used to
## 00:07:43
**中文**
说我喜欢的一句话，那就是如果你的生活中有一个遥控器上的快进按钮，你的生活就结束了。所以就像无聊的部分、糟糕的部分一样，这比没有经验要好得多。这都是有趣的、情感深度和范围的一部分。我不知道，我发现对糟糕的日子表示感激是相当容易的。当你思考诸如难题以及什么能让人们兴奋地去解决难题时，你如何在公司内部决定要解决哪些事情以及何时以及何时想只专注于你的核心能力而不是扩大范围。
**English / Original**
say this thing that I loved which is if you had like a fast forward button on a remote for your life your life would be over. And so like the boring parts, the bad parts, it's like much better than no experience. It's all part of the like interestingness of and the kind of like emotional depth and range. And I don't know, I find it like fairly easy to be grateful for the bad days. When you think about like hard problems and like what rallies people to get excited to go work on hard problems, how do you decide like internally at the company which things to go tackle and when and like when you want to like focus on just your core competencies versus like expanding the scope.
## 00:08:21
**中文**
>> 我认为，一个明确的使命和对问题的深刻理解一起可以很好地指出你应该做什么。你不会一切都好。在某些时候你仍然会喜欢过度扩张或不够雄心勃勃。嗯，但是我们非常关注这将极大地增强人们的能力。你知道，这将是波涛汹涌但精彩的，对我们来说极其重要的是世界上的权力变得更加分散和更加分散。事实上，我现在担心的最大的人工智能风险之一就是人工智能独裁主义。你知道，一小部分人或
**English / Original**
>> I think like a clear mission and then a deep understanding of the problem together do a fairly good job of pointing to what you should do. you won't get it all right. You'll still like at some points overly expand or not be ambitious enough. Um, but we are we are like very focused on this is going to massively empower people. It's going to be, you know, choppy but wonderful and it's extremely important to us that power in the world get more decentralized and more spread out. And in fact, like one of the biggest AI risks I am worried right now is like AI authoritarianism. And you know, a small number of people or
## 00:09:04
**中文**
公司认为他们需要控制世界。那将是非常非常糟糕的。嗯，但是鉴于这个使命，我们觉得我们需要弄清楚如何让人工智能变得极其丰富、极其便宜、极其强大，将其放在每个人的手中，并且有很多可以使用。当我们审视其中的障碍时，我们发现了一大堆新的限制，例如芯片、能源、数据中心和机器人，以及需要组合在一起构建这个平台的所有部件，以便我们能够完成这项任务。现在，您可以在该平台上构建很多东西，例如您可以构建每个垂直领域、每个初创公司。我们不想那样做。我认为一个
**English / Original**
companies thinking they need to control the world. That'd be very, very bad. Um, but given this mission, we feel like we need to figure out how to make AI extremely abundant, extremely cheap, extremely powerful, put it in everyone's hands, and like have a lot of it to get to use. And as we look at what's in the way of that, there's a whole bunch of new constraints like chips and energy and data centers and robots and all the pieces that need to come together to build this platform so that we can like enable this mission. Now there's a bunch of things you can build on top of that platform like you can go build every vertical, every startup. We have no desire to do that like that. I think a
## 00:09:43
**中文**
去中心化经济是重要且有益的，我希望我们能够真正出色地生产这些智能单元，让世界变得像人类一样，这是你知道的令人难以置信的能力，我们将把它融入到每一个产品和服务中，所以我认为这对我们非常有启发性，我们必须做什么，有趣的是，关键投入是非常丰富的高质量低成本智能，很多东西，比如能源，比如机器人，呃，也是你真正想要的东西丰富的智慧世界。如果有很多想法并且有这么多很棒的东西，我们仍然
**English / Original**
decentralized economy is important and good and I would like us to just be really great about producing these units of intelligence and make the world like man this is just you know incredibly capable an incredibly great deal and we're going to imbue it in every product and service and so I think that's very instructive to us about what we have to go do my interestingly the the kind of key inputs to like extraordinarily abundant highquality lowcost intelligence a lot of those things like energy, like robots, uh are also things that you really want in a world of abundant intelligence. If ideas are plentiful and there's all this great stuff, we still
## 00:10:24
**中文**
就像生活在现实世界中一样，我们仍然希望事情发生。所以，你知道，我们需要能够让事情在那个世界发生。我想知道能源和机器人对于保持这个智能基础设施坡道是否如此重要，以及能源和机器人之后您立即需要的东西是否如此重要。嗯，说的是任何深奥的东西，或者就像最无聊的[清喉咙]显而易见的事情，就像产生任何智能，包括操纵物质所需的东西。
**English / Original**
live like in a physical world and we still want stuff to happen. So, you know, we need to be able to make stuff happen in that world. And I have wondered if like the fact that energy and robots are going to be so important to staying on this this intelligence infrastructure ramp and also the things that you need immediately after it are energy and robots. Um says anything deep at all or is just like the most boring [clears throat] obvious thing which is like to produce anything intelligence included you need to manipulate matter.
## 00:10:56
**中文**
有趣的是，我们当前的工作如此需要这些新领域，而紧随其后的阶段对它们的需求还会更大。 >> 你认为最大的瓶颈是什么？如果目标是让扩展不受阻碍地持续下去，你看到的最大瓶颈是什么？ >> 晶体管，其次是电力——按这个顺序。
**English / Original**
But it is kind of interesting that we need these new areas so much for what we're doing now and then so much more immediately after. >> What do you think your biggest bottleneck is? Uh if you just say like we want this to continue scaling unabated. What is the biggest bottleneck that you can see? >> Transistors and then electrons in that order.
## 00:11:15
**中文**
>> 因此，假设您知道您拥有像 Jensen 这样的人，他非常擅长使所有供应商朝着您的方向努力，知道他对未来的愿景。我认为你在这方面也非常擅长。嗯，您如何看待不仅让 OpenAI 保持在 OpenAI 时间表上，而且让世界其他地方也保持在 OpenAI 时间表上？
**English / Original**
>> So let's say you know you take someone like Jensen where he's like incredibly good at aligning all his suppliers towards you know his vision for the future. I think you're also extremely good at this. Um, how do you kind of think about not only keeping OpenAI on the OpenAI timelines, but also keep the rest of the world on OpenAI timelines as well?
## 00:11:36
**中文**
>> 要经常和他们沟通，这是必须的。你不能只是说：“我需要你在某个日期交付这台涡轮机或这款芯片。”因为对方可能只会说“好吧，随便”，他们还有许多其他优先事项。你必须真正向他们展示即将推出的模型、模型能实现什么，以及我们的研究。对于核心供应商，我们会让他们深入了解我们正在做什么、为什么持有这些判断，以及这将带来什么。最重要的是让他们相信这项使命，理解为什么需要优先投入；同时也要尽可能让他们的激励与我们的激励保持一致。
**English / Original**
>> You talk to them a lot. You have to and you don't just say like, I need you to like deliver this turbine or this chip on this date. Um, because you know people will say, "Okay, whatever." And they have a bunch of other priorities. You really have to like show them here is the upcoming model. Here's what it enables. Here's our research. like we we we for our core suppliers, we really show them a lot about what we're doing, why we believe what we believe, what it's going to enable. Um, and you know, you figure out I mean, the most important thing is to like get them to believe in the mission and why they need to prioritize it, but you also try to figure out how to align their incentives
## 00:12:09
**中文**
尽可能与你保持一致。
**English / Original**
with yours as much as you can.
## 00:12:10
**中文**
>> Charlie Munger 有句很精彩的话：“每次我以为自己已经理解激励机制的力量，最后都会发现还是低估了它。”你怎样让不同合作伙伴以及 OpenAI 内部人员的激励成功对齐？ >> 首先，公司本身就是实现这种对齐的非凡载体。小时候我非常着迷于工业革命；当时我把它理解为一批恰好在同一时期出现、又不知为何恰好同时规模化的技术。我会和朋友、父母讨论，究竟这项、那项还是另一项技术才是
**English / Original**
>> Charlie Mer has this awesome line where he's like, "Every time I've thought that I understood the power of incentives, I've like underestimated them." How do you like successfully align all the incentives of the different partners as well as the people inside of OpenAI? >> Well, companies are amazing vehicles for this to start. Um the you know as a kid I was like very fascinated by the industrial revolution and I understood it as a bunch of technologies that happened to come around the same time and for some puzzling reason happened to scale at around the same time. Um, and you know, I would like talk to my friends or my parents or whatever about whether it was like this technology was
## 00:12:47
**中文**
最重要的发明或这个或那个。从我目前的角度来看，就像一个现在花了更多时间思考商业的人一样，重要的发明是股份公司。在它发明之前，你知道你有类似的家族企业，依靠信任运行，你必须认识每个人，而且你没有公司的想法。你真的没有像股东这样的想法。
**English / Original**
the most important invention or this one or that one. And my read of it from my current lens as like someone who has now spent more time think about business is that the the important invention was the joint stock corporation. And before that was invented and you know you had these like kind of family businesses that ran on trust and you had to know everyone and you didn't have the idea of a corporation. You didn't have the idea of like stockholders really.
## 00:13:17
**中文**
然后突然间这个新东西被发明了。像世界上的主权国家这样的国家授予了这种以前不存在的新地位。这是非常强大的事情，我们将让这些新实体出现，而不是赋予它们国家的权力，而是赋予它们比个人的权力更多的东西。从根本上讲，这是关于激励调整、责任保护，这是另一种激励调整。嗯，有能力积累资本，突然间你就可以做超出家族企业所能做的事情。还有那个
**English / Original**
And then all of a sudden this new thing was invented. Countries like the sovereigns of the world granted this sort of a new kind of status really a thing that didn't exist before. This very powerful thing that we're going to let these new entities emerge and not give them the power of a state but give them like much more than the power of a person. And fundamentally this was about you know incentive alignment, liability protection which is another kind of incentive alignment. Um the ability to like amass capital and all of a sudden you could do things beyond what a family business could do. And that
## 00:13:57
**中文**
环境让人们筹集资金来开发技术。非常投机的性质。呃，资金池想办法让不同的公司以不同的方式专业化并相互互动。严肃的金融体系和新型工具。这实在是一件不可思议的事情。呃，公司的理念在调整一大群人的激励方面发挥了巨大作用。现在，你知道，数百万人可以成为一家公司的股东。我们还做了很多其他的事情，但我不想贬低这个令人难以置信的发明，就像那些荒谬的发明一样
**English / Original**
environment let people raise money to develop technologies. Very speculative nature. Uh pool capital figure out ways to get different companies to sort of specialize in different ways and interact with each other. Serious financial systems and new kinds of instruments. This was really an incredible thing. uh and and the idea of a company has done a huge amount to align incentives of very large groups of people. Now, you know, millions of people can be shareholders of a company. There's a bunch of other things we do, but I don't want to diminish what has been this incredible invention and like the the just ridiculous
## 00:14:39
**中文**
资本主义在人类社会中的过度表现。就像一张图表，我认为人们应该比他们更多地关注过去百年中极端贫困的下降>>比如婴儿死亡率和所有其他事情>>任何你想要的任何相关的事情。嗯，如果你喜欢回顾一下，那就像是过去百年来最放大的视图。但如果你回顾一下经济增长、生活质量的改善，呃所有这些事情，你就像画出了所有的人类历史，当公司被发明时你就画了这条线，你会发现之后曲线的形状发生了非常有趣的变化。
**English / Original**
overperformance of capitalism in human society. Like a chart that I think people should look at much more than they do is the like fall of extreme poverty over the last hundred years >> like infant mortality and all the other things >> any of them that you want any of the associated things. Um you know if you like kind of look back at that that's like the most zoomed in view of the last hundred years. But if you look back at kind of economic growth, quality of life improvements, uh all of these things and you just like drew out all of human history and you put the line when like the company was invented, you would see like a really quite interesting change in the shape of that curve after it.
## 00:15:20
**中文**
除此之外，呃，我认为我们的使命超越了任何其他任何经济力量所能做到的。呃，这可能更重要。 >> 我认为最有趣的事情之一是，您是否见过这样的统计数据：我不知道类似的首席执行官中反社会人格者和精神病患者的比例是多少？
**English / Original**
Beyond that, uh I think we have a mission that transcends any amount of economic power anything else could ever do. Uh, and that's probably more important. >> One of the things that I've thought is the most interesting is have you ever seen one of those stats where it's like I don't know what percentage of like CEOs are sociopaths and psychopaths?
## 00:15:39
**中文**
这就像非常非常高。 >> 人们谈论这个。 >>所以我想知道资本主义是否是第一个允许这些超级自私的人喜欢他们的激励措施与社会重新调整并创造伟大的产品的体系，然后突然你帮助了社会，但你也赢了。嗯，我确实认识很多反社会的首席执行官，但我想说的是，我所认识的最好的首席执行官不会归入这一类别。有很多非常自负的首席执行官，呃，人们只是喜欢对自己有非常高的评价，这可能纯粹是令人讨厌，但现在因为人们可以喜欢，你知道，购买他们的股票，也许你喜欢容忍他们的股票
**English / Original**
It's like very very high. >> People talk about this. >> So I I wonder if capitalism is the first system that allowed these people that are like super kind of self- serving to like their incentives are realigned with societies and just create great products and then suddenly you help society but you also win. Um, I definitely know a lot of sociopathic CEOs, but I would say the best ones I know I would not put in that category. There's a lot of very high ego CEOs, uh, people just like incredibly high opinions of themselves on a way that maybe like would have been just like purely annoying, but now because people can like, you know, buy their shares, maybe you like tolerate their
## 00:16:14
**中文**
烦恼和滑稽动作多一点。所以，那里肯定有一些对齐的东西。我不知道。我认为有很多大公司的首席执行官我根本不会将他们归入反社会者类别。 >> 您认为这些人的动力是什么？ >> 我的意思是，对于不同的人来说这是不同的。就像肯定看到他们在比赛中能取得多么好的成绩，或者喜欢他们每年能比自己做得更好，我认为这是其中的一个重要部分。你知道，这在智力上非常刺激。
**English / Original**
annoyance and antics a little more. So, there's definitely some aligning thing there. I don't know. I think there are a lot of CEOs of very large companies that I would not put in the sociopath category at all. >> What do you think drives those people? >> I mean, it's different for different ones of them. Like definitely seeing how good they can get at the game or like how much they can get better than themselves every year I think is a huge part of it. You know, it's like intellectually quite stimulating.
## 00:16:40
**中文**
>> 嗯。 >> 嗯，对于所有其他问题，比如你正在玩最有趣的战略游戏，这可能很有趣。如果你必须考虑一下，如果将你现在的运作方式与 10 年前的运作方式放在与你现在完全相同的位置上，这两个人之间最大的差异是什么？好吧，关于上一个问题，最让我驱动的事情是，这是我能想象到的最有趣、最重要的事情，我们现在就像在奇点，就像这就是时刻 >> 对于 10 年前来说，这充其量就像是一种遥远的梦想。嗯，看起来不太可能，但现在我们
**English / Original**
>> Mhm. >> Um for all of the other problems like you're kind of playing the most interesting strategic game and that can be fun. If you had to think about the way that you operate today versus the way that you would have operated 10 years ago if placed in the exact same position that you are currently what are the biggest differences between those two people? Well, on the to the previous question, the thing that drives me the most is like this is the most interesting important thing I can imagine doing and we are now like in the singularity like this is the moment >> for the la 10 years ago this was like a kind of far off dream at best. Um seemed very improbable and now we're
## 00:17:19
**中文**
实际上就像我们过去喜欢在午餐桌上以一种非常不严肃的方式谈论的那一刻一样。呃，所以驱动我的是我一生都在等待这一切，我认为这对世界来说将是令人难以置信的、非常积极的、令人敬畏的。嗯，我很高兴能从事这方面的工作。我还认为其他公司描绘的一些另类愿景非常可怕。我将确保这种情况不会发生。嗯，但与 10 年前不同的是，我们实际上就在其中。就像这就是真实的我认为这都是真的，这都是一个疯狂的指数，而且是任何一个
**English / Original**
like actually in the moment that we used to like talk about at the lunch table in a very not serious way. Uh, and so the thing that drives me is I've been waiting for this my whole life and I think it's going to be incredible, hugely positive, awesome for the world. Um, I'm excited to get to work on that. I also think some of the alternative visions painted by other companies are like quite terrifying. I'm going to make sure that gets pushed against and is not what happens. Um, but the main thing of what's different than 10 years ago is like we're actually in it. like this is the real I think it is both true that it is all one crazy exponential and any one
## 00:17:58
**中文**
这一刻并不像临界点，而且我们不知何故正处于另一个决定性时期，曲线可以像十年前开始时那样朝这边或那边走。 >> 您认为使这部分曲线正确的最大影响是什么？我认为仍然存在重大的人工智能协调问题和安全问题需要解决，并且仍然存在重大的经济问题、就业的未来等等。但我认为当前的斗争是我们将走向人工智能独裁主义还是自由的世界？我们是吗
**English / Original**
moment is not like the tipping point and also that we are somehow in another one of those decisive periods where the curve can go one way or another like it was when we started 10 years ago. >> What do you think the biggest impacts are on getting this part of the curve right? I think like there are still major AI alignment issues to solve and safety issues and there are still major economic issues, future of jobs, all of that kind of stuff. But I think the fight of the current moment is are we going to head to a world of AI authoritarianism or liberty? Are we
## 00:18:39
**中文**
我们将决定，由于非常现实的安全问题和经济问题，你知道我们希望一个单一的模型成为机器之神或与此相关的公司，或者我们会说，就像你知道它会是什么一样，它可能有点混乱，但每次人类为了安全而牺牲自由时，这都是一个长期的净损失，所以我们将把它交给人们，我们将赋予他们权力。我们将让社会表达自己的想法并以他们想要的方式使用这项技术。当然，根据一些护栏有一些护栏，但你知道，具有很大的力量和潜力。呃，还有我
**English / Original**
going to decide that because of the very real safety issues and economic issues that you know we want one single model to be the machine god or the company associated to do that or are we going to say like you know what it's going to be it may be a little messy but every time that humanity has traded off its liberty for safety it's been a long-term net loss and so we are going to put this in the hands of people we're going to empower power them. We are going to let society express its ideas and use this technology in the way they want. Of course, according to some guard rails with some guardrails, but you know, with a lot of power and potential. Uh, and I
## 00:19:22
**中文**
真的很关心我们这样做。
**English / Original**
really care that we do it that way.
## 00:19:24
**中文**
>> 当您在舞台上与 Patrick Hollson 交谈时，一定就像几个月前一样，您说过一件有趣的事情，基本上就像您每天在内部与 3 到 400 人交谈或发短信一样。 >> 我发短信的人比我认识的任何人都多。我不认为这是什么好事。我认为这实际上是一个坏习惯。
**English / Original**
>> When you were talking with Patrick Hollson on stage, must have been like a couple months ago, there was this fascinating thing that you said, which is basically like you will talk or text with 3 to 400 people a day internally. >> I text more people than anybody else I know. I don't think this is like a good thing. I think this is actually like a bad habit.
## 00:19:42
**中文**
>> 为什么？ >> 嗯，因为它占用了我大部分的时间，而且我现在的注意力持续时间很短。 >> 有趣。是什么让你能够像其他方式那样做？ >> 大量的上下文。我的意思是，我就像一个人工智能模型，它并不那么聪明，但只是拥有大量的短期背景信息，比如现在发生的任何事情，然后就忘记了。
**English / Original**
>> Why? >> Um because it takes up like most of my time and I get like into I have a very short attention span now. >> Interesting. What does that enable you to do that like otherwise? >> Huge amount of context. I mean I'm like a AI model that's not that smart but just has like a huge amount like a shortterm context on like whatever's happening right now and then forget.
## 00:20:00
**中文**
这是否能让你做出其他人不会做的决定？比如哪家公司的决策更好？我不知道。我的意思是，它让我可以做出与其他人不同的决定。 >> 在过去的 12 个月里，您会做出哪些不同的决定，而如果没有这么多背景信息，您就不会做出这些决定？
**English / Original**
Does that enable you to make decisions that other people wouldn't have? Like what company decision better? I don't know. I mean, it lets me make different decisions on other people would. >> What different decisions would you have you made in the last like 12 months that you wouldn't have made if you didn't have so much context?
## 00:20:14
**中文**
>> 我不知道我是否有一个可以公开分享的具体内容，但有很多事情，你知道，因为我知道即将发生一些随机研究突破，这会影响某些客户或供应商或其他什么，我可以立即做出稍微不同的决定。如果那天早上我不知道的话，我会做出不同的决定。情况会更糟。我认为你最擅长的事情之一就是长期思考，但事情似乎发展得如此之快，世界变化如此之快，以至于计划 20 年后然后回顾过去，我什至不知道这是否有意义。嗯你觉得怎么样
**English / Original**
>> I don't know if I have like a specific one I can share publicly, but there's like a lot of things where, you know, because I I know about some random research breakthrough impending that is going to like affect some customer or some supplier or whatever, I can make a slightly different decision in the moment. And if I hadn't known it that morning, I would have made a different decision. It would have been worse. One of the things that I think you are the best at is kind of like long-term thinking and yet it also seems like things are moving so quickly and the world is changing so fast that planning 20 years out and then like looking backwards I don't even know if that makes sense. Um how do you think about
## 00:20:48
**中文**
这？您的时间定价缩短情况如何？我实际上并没有尝试向后计划。我试着对未来抱有一小部分坚定的信念，就像前进的方向，但然后我尝试从当前状态出发制定前进计划，比如我们现在可以做什么，今年我们可以做什么，有时你确实必须在你知道的5年或10年的范围内计划一些事情，但我尝试以少数关于未来的信念为指导来制定前进计划，我认为有很多人对未来有太多的信念，并且有一种僵化的世界观，他们认为，尝试适应，然后发生的事情是他们最终会追逐你
**English / Original**
this? How is like is your time pricing shortening? I I actually don't try to plan backwards. I try to have like a a small number of strongly held convictions about the future that are like directions to head towards but then I try to like plan forwards from the current state about like what can we do now what can we do this year and sometimes you do have to like plan a few things on a you know 5 or 10 year horizon but I try to plan forward guided to a small number of beliefs about the future I think there are a lot of people who have way too many beliefs about the future and a kind of rigid worldview that they try to fit and then but what happens is they end up like chasing, you
## 00:21:26
**中文**
你知道，你会看到太空公司变成了人工智能公司或其他什么公司。嗯，就像只有一小部分你对未来深信不疑的事情，而对其余的事情则非常灵活。嗯，忠于核心是有帮助的。我最了解的人之一，他的高层，你知道，公司的核心价值只是关键路径，并且只关注关键路径，就像关注最大障碍的关键驱动因素一样。只要把它去掉，然后转到下一个，然后再做一次。
**English / Original**
know, you see like space companies turn into AI companies or whatever. Um, and like having just a small number of things that you deeply believe about the future and being very flexible on the rest. Um, and staying very true to the core is is helpful. One of the people that I know the best, his top, you know, company core value is just critical path and just focusing on the critical path and like staying focused on the key drivers of whatever the biggest roadblock is. just unfuck that and then go to the next one and do that again.
## 00:21:55
**中文**
当您尝试做出这些决定时，您如何看待自己生活中的关键路径？ >> 我的意思是，长期以来，我一直专注于丰富智慧这一单一目标，并相信，只要我们没有奇怪的权力集中和一种新型的独裁主义，令人难以置信的人类繁荣就会来自于此。在任何特定时间，我都相当清楚实现这一目标的关键路径是什么。你知道，我并没有受到诱惑，我应该重新考虑目标，还是应该考虑其他事情。我最近一直在想，好吧，如果我们真的接近超级
**English / Original**
How do you think about critical path in your own life when you're kind of like trying to make these decisions? >> I mean, for so long now, I have felt focused on this singular goal of abundant intelligence and a belief that like incredible human prosperity will come from that as long as we don't have a weird power concentration and kind of a new kind of authoritarianism. It has been fairly clear to me at any given time what's on the critical path to get there. And I have not been tempted by, you know, should I reconsider the goal or should I think about these other things. I have been thinking about that a little bit more recently of like, okay, if we really are close to super
## 00:22:29
**中文**
智慧，下一步是什么？但这就是我主观上感觉我们已经接近的方式，这是十多年来我第一次思考下一步是什么。 >> 这是牧场吗？ >> 呃，我的意思是最终可能还会有更多的事情发生，但那是的，这就是最终的计划。如果你不得不尝试猜测山姆在牧场之前还想完成什么。
**English / Original**
intelligence, what's next? But but it's this that's kind of how I I subjectively feel we are close is the first time in like more than a decade I've thought about what is the next thing. >> And is it the ranch? >> Uh I mean eventually there might be a few more things on the way, but that is yes, that is the eventual plan. If you had to like try to guess what else does Sam want to accomplish before he ranches.
## 00:22:53
**中文**
>> 嗯，你看，人工智能超级智能将会像你知道的那样建立起来，但就像我们正在滑翔的道路上 >> 到达那里的道路非常>> 丰富和去中心化，喜欢广泛访问它，并确保它最终带来广泛共享的繁荣。我真的很想做到这一点。所以也许这就是我一直在思考的下一件事，比如我们将如何在技术上完成我们的使命。我认为我们对安全和影响的许多世界观和信念也将影响我们完成这些事情。嗯，但你知道非常广泛的共同繁荣，并且真正关注
**English / Original**
>> Um look AI super intelligence is going to get built like that you know not done but like going to we are we are on the glide path >> path to the get there is very >> abundance and decentraliz and like wide access to it and making sure that it ends up with like broadly shared prosperity. I would really like to accomplish that. So maybe that that's the thing that I've been like thinking about as the next thing like how does technologically we're going to accomplish our mission. I think a lot of our worldview and a lot of our beliefs about safety and the impact is going to have have also we've gotten those things done too. Um but you know very broadly shared prosperity and uh a real focus on
## 00:23:35
**中文**
在这里为世界赋能。嗯，这似乎非常重要。我听到你一次又一次地说呃这个在边缘情况下乘坐飞机的想法。我已经为你做过很多次了。 >> 呃，到目前为止，它运行得很好。好的。我认为 >> 我认为这是非常可靠的建议。 >> 您最后一次在边缘情况下乘坐飞机是什么时候？
**English / Original**
enabling the world here. Um that seems very important. I've heard you say again and again uh this idea of get on planes in marginal situations. I've done this a huge number of times for you. >> Uh so far it's working pretty well. Good. I think >> I think it's I think it's very solid advice. >> When was the last time that you got on a plane in a marginal situation?
## 00:23:54
**中文**
>> 好吧，我不能说为什么，但最近它成功了。 >> 恭喜。 >> 谢谢。 >> 我真的不想这么做。这就像一个非常不方便的两个晚上。不想这么做。新生婴儿，一团糟，但我做到了。 >> 好的。实际上带我进入你决定进行这次世界巡演的心理过程。这只是我的意思，就像很难倒回 3 年一样，因为现在感觉人工智能已经永远存在，但 3 年前我们刚刚推出了 GPT4。世界正在融化。每个人都吓坏了。嗯，每个人都像天啊。没有人知道该怎么想。我能感觉到这些就像暴风云正在酝酿，就像>>人们正在生气
**English / Original**
>> Well, I can't say what for, but very recently and it worked out. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> And I really didn't want to. It was like a very inconvenient two overnights. Didn't want to do it. New baby, whole mess, but I did. >> Okay. actually take me into your like mental process for deciding to do this world tour. That is just I mean it again it's like hard to rewind 3 years cuz now like it feels like AI has been here forever but 3 years ago we had just launched GPT4. The world was melting down. Everybody was freaking out. Um everybody was just like oh man. And no one knew what to think. And I could just feel these like storm clouds brewing and like >> people just getting angry
## 00:24:38
**中文**
>> 或 >> 就像世界领导人说的那样，我们是否需要控制并关闭一切？就像这件事醒来一样，那是一个奇怪的时刻，因为这一切发生得太快，人们没有时间去思考它经历这个过程。呃，所以你知道，我们就像得到了所有这些不断升级的东西，所有这些就像世界领导人一样，你会来见我们吗？我们就像你知道考虑这样做那样，我想，呃，我想，如果我或公司的某个人，但当时公司不是很大，所以我想可能必须是我，不会出现并与人们交谈。我有一种感觉
**English / Original**
>> or >> it was like world leaders were like do we need to like take control and shut things down? Like is this thing waking up and about it was it was a weird time and because it had all happened so fast people had not had time to like wrap their head around it go through this process whatever. Uh so you know we were like getting all of this escalating stuff and all these like world leaders were like will you come meet us we're like you know thinking about doing this and that and I was like uh I think if I or someone from the company but at the time company was not very big so I was like probably going to have to be me does not go like show up and talk to people. I had like a sense
## 00:25:14
**中文**
事情即将变得非常糟糕，我正在考虑进行一系列短途旅行，但我讨厌长途飞行。我讨厌时差。我拥有全部的事情。所以，我想，我只想在短时间内完成这件事。嗯，布莱恩·切斯基建议我这么做。他为 Airbnb 做了一些事情，与 Airbnb 类似，但他做了八个城市之类的事情。
**English / Original**
it was about to go very badly and I was thinking about doing like a bunch of short trips but I hate long flights. I hate jet lag. I had the whole thing. So, I was like, I'm just going to like get this over with in a short period of time. Um, Brian Chesky advised me to do it. He had done something for Airbnb, similar for Airbnb, but he had done like eight cities or something.
## 00:25:32
**中文**
>> 然后你就会说，“操，我们打吧。我们就打 30 吧。” >> 20. >> 我想我们去了 28 个国家，>> 35 天。呃，我喜欢住在飞机上。这是一个非常奇怪的事情。 >> 你有床吗？ >> 我有一个是的，我很舒服，但是，是的，我有一张床。 >> 嗯，>> 我乘坐经济舱，所以有点不同。这比那更好，对吧？这比那好多了。
**English / Original**
>> And you were like, "Fuck it, we ball. Let's just do 30." >> 20. >> I think we did 28 countries, >> 35 days. Uh, I like lived on an airplane. It was a very strange. >> Did you have a bed? >> I had like a Yeah, I was comfortable, but yeah, I had a bed. >> Um, >> I fly coach, so it's a little bit different. This is better than that, right? This is a lot better than that.
## 00:25:52
**中文**
但你知道，旅行似乎仍然很糟糕。就像你可以让它变得像你想要的那样舒适，但你仍然喜欢想念你自己的床、你自己的时区、你的办公室等等。 >> 我学到的一件事是，无论有多少人喜欢这些时差疗法，他们都觉得这很糟糕。你的大脑不喜欢它。
**English / Original**
But like, you know, it's like travel still sucks. Like you can make it as comfortable as you want and you still like miss your own bed and your own time zone and your office and whatever. >> One thing that I've learned is no matter how many people have like these cures for jet lag, they're all Like it just sucks. Your brain doesn't like it.
## 00:26:08
**中文**
>> 我从来没有进去过，因为我去了很多地方。我认为我最大的时区变化是整个旅程 4 小时>>并且大部分时间就像一次 1 小时。所以，我并没有那么倒时差。我简直筋疲力尽，这很奇怪。这么快就能看到这个世界真是太酷了，因为当你从一个地方到另一个地方时，你确实能感受到非常微妙的文化差异。但到最后，就像过去几天一样，我开始，这是一种奇怪的，你知道的，半睡半醒的梦。但我开始有了这样的视觉、感觉，无论是在我童年的床上。
**English / Original**
>> I never in because I went to so many places. I think my biggest time zone change was 4 hours the whole trip >> and mostly it was like a 1 hour at a time hop. So, I wasn't that jetlagged. I was just like exhausted and it was very strange. It was kind of cool to get to see the world so quickly because you really do get a sense for like cultural differences that are very subtle when you go from place to place. But by the end of it, like the last few days, I started, it was one of these like weird, you know, half asleep, half awake kind of somewhat dreams. But I started having this like vision, feeling, whatever of being in my childhood bed.
## 00:26:52
**中文**
>> 有趣。 >> Which I never had before since. But I would sort of like vaguely wake up and I would think I was in my childhood bed in my childhood room. And I was like, "Okay, this is some like deep it's time to go home thing." >> You're like subconscious fighting back or something. >> Something like that. >> 有趣。 When you're in zombie mode and you're kind of like trying to function, I think uh or goblin mode, whatever you prefer, how do you change?
**English / Original**
>> Interesting. >> Which I never had before since. But I would sort of like vaguely wake up and I would think I was in my childhood bed in my childhood room. And I was like, "Okay, this is some like deep it's time to go home thing." >> You're like subconscious fighting back or something. >> Something like that. >> Interesting. When you're in zombie mode and you're kind of like trying to function, I think uh or goblin mode, whatever you prefer, how do you change?
## 00:27:15
**中文**
比如你有什么不同？ >> 你决定如何继续下去？ >> 我确实到了接近尾声的时候，我就像在寻找回家的日子。嗯，我就像我一样，因为每天就像你知道的 14 个小时一样不间断，我不是一个外向的人，你知道，在某些情况下我每天会见数百人。嗯，紧张感在结束时有所缓解，但一开始世界非常紧张，然后就像你知道的那样，我想一旦它确实平静下来了。我认为有一点有帮助，那就是很明显，我知道我什么时候回家，而且我知道我必须回家
**English / Original**
Like what is different about you? >> How do you decide to keep on going? >> I definitely got to this point near the end where I was like hunting down the days till I could be home. Um I was just like I cuz each day was like it was like you know 14 hours of like nonstop and I'm like not an extroverted person, you you know, I was meeting like hundreds of people a day in some cases. Um, and like tensions lowered by the end of it, but at the beginning like the world was like very nervous and and then like you know, I think once it just like it did calm down. I I think one thing that helped is it was clear that like I knew when I was going to get home and I knew I was going to have to
## 00:27:58
**中文**
做一段时间再做一次。嗯，从那以后我就做了较小的。我可能每年都会喜欢一两次这样的事情。但我想说的是，我学到的一件事是，我宁愿把一堆国际旅行集中在一起，比如 7 或 10 天的时间，而不是一堆分散的一日游。所以我总是尝试这样做。现在我认为很多人高估了大多数行动所涉及的类似风险。就像如果你只是购买一堆罗宾汉的看涨期权，就会有很大的风险，但坐飞机之类的风险可能要小得多。最好的例子是什么？
**English / Original**
do it again for a while. Um, I've done smaller ones since. I probably do like something like that once or twice a year. But I was going to say like a thing I learned is that I would much rather put a bunch of international travel together in like a 7 or 10 day chunk than a bunch of one day trips spread out. So I always do try to do it that way. Now I think a lot of people overestimate the like risk involved in making most actions. Like there is a lot of risk if you're just, you know, buying a bunch of call options on Robin Hood, but there's probably a lot less risk on getting on planes and stuff. What have been the best examples of times where you basically did something that seemed really risky to
## 00:28:38
**中文**
其他人，但你知道不是或者你相信不是？ >> 我想最明显的例子就是我总是非常坚定地购买大量计算机。 >> 你有没有看过这样的表情包：如果你是一个，那么一切都是高风险的 >> 不。好表情包。嗯，我花了很多时间试图与人们讨论为什么他们认为某个特定决策是高风险或低风险。我发现，只要让人们大声谈论它，通常至少可以在任一方向上突破他们的智力障碍，因为人们通常会在某一方面出错。并不总是其中的情感部分，但有时也是如此。如果你必须考虑其中之一
**English / Original**
other people, but you knew wasn't or you believed wasn't? >> I guess the obvious example would be like I I was always extremely high conviction buying a lot of comput. >> Have you ever seen the meme everything's high risk if you're a >> No. Good meme. Um, I spend a lot of time trying to talk to people about why they think a specific decision is high risk or low risk. And I have found that just getting people to speak about it out loud will often at least get through their intellectual blocks in either direction because people are usually wrong one way or the other. Not always the emotional part of it, but sometimes also. If you had to think through one of
## 00:29:18
**中文**
在这些会议上，如果有人坚决反对您想做的某些决定，那么帮助他们了解您所看到的内容的最有效方法是什么？ >> 说实话，我认为我不太擅长这件事。我认为正确的答案是花很多时间真正尝试解释它并让人们到达那里。事实上我认为我以前在这方面做得更好。由于生活变得如此忙碌，我更像是感到不安或沮丧，或者说，“这就是我们要做的。”我不认为这是一个积极的特质。我想回到更多类似的话题，让我们认真讨论一下。
**English / Original**
these meetings where someone is like firmly against some decision that you want to do, what is the most effective way to kind of help them see what you see? >> I don't think I'm very good at this to be honest. I think like the right answer is to spend a lot of time really trying to explain it and get people there. And I actually think I used to be better at that. And as life has gotten so busy, I'm more just like I get upset or frustrated or say, "This is what we're going to do." And I don't I don't think it's like a positive trait. And I would like to get back to more of the like let's really talk it through.
## 00:29:53
**中文**
>> 你说你过去比现在更难相处，我不知道，2008 910 附近的某个地方。 >> 我不知道人们是否会形容与我一起工作很有趣。我喜欢与有趣的人一起工作，喜欢高效、雄心勃勃，喜欢非常专注于使命，但喜欢日常工作，喜欢与人一起工作真的很有趣。我不认为我是一个特别有趣的人。
**English / Original**
>> You said that you used to be much harder to work with, I don't know, 2008 910 somewhere around there than you are today. >> I I don't know if people would describe me as fun to work with. I like interesting to work with, like effective, ambition raising, like very mission focused, but like dayto-day like really fun to work with. I don't think I'm like a particularly fun person in general.
## 00:30:19
**中文**
>> 我觉得如果你玩得很开心，它往往会具有感染力。我认为，如果你通常都在做你想做的事情，那就会很开心。 >> 呃，也许我错了。我的意思是，你可以去问问和我一起工作的一群人。我不，我不，我不，我不认为与你一起工作会带来极大的乐趣。
**English / Original**
>> I feel like if you are having a good time, it's tends to be infectious. And I think if you are generally working on things that you want to work on, it is having a good time. >> Uh maybe I'm wrong. I mean, you could go ask a bunch of people I work with. I'm not I'm not I I don't I don't think you would get like a resounding fun to work with.
## 00:30:38
**中文**
>> 也许不是那种语言。 >> 我认为人们会说诸如解决问题的创造性解决方案、新的见解、非常高的野心、让我做一些我认为自己做不到的事情之类的东西。 >> 当您与某人开会时，发现他们不够雄心勃勃，而您需要努力帮助他们变得更加雄心勃勃，通常会是什么样子？
**English / Original**
>> Maybe not that language. >> I think people would say stuff like creative solutions to problems, new insights, like very high level of ambition, like got me to do something I didn't think I could do, that kind of thing. >> What does it typically look like when you go into a meeting with someone and you realize that they are not ambitious enough and you need to try to help them become more ambitious?
## 00:31:02
**中文**
当你说这就像我与新 YC 创始人的第一次办公时间一样，你会想到一个在美国企业界工作过的普通人，你在一家大型科技公司认识了几年，野心的水平缩放了思维自信，无论它是灾难性的低可怕可怕，你意识到像这个人在他们的生活中从来没有过老板。他们从来没有没有父母、老师、经理或任何能告诉他们该做什么或被允许做什么的人
**English / Original**
the the the version of this that came to mind when you were saying that was like first office hours I would have with new YC founders and you take average person who's worked in corporate America you know at a big tech company for a few years and the level of ambition scaled thinking self-belief whatever it's just catastrophically low horrible horrible and you realize that like this person has never not had a boss in their life. They have never not had a parent or a teacher or a manager or whatever that kind of would tell them what to do or what they were allowed to
## 00:31:41
**中文**
做或做什么。他们也会因为太有创造力、想要太多、想得太大、太雄心勃勃等而受到惩罚。大多数国家或文化都有某种形容过于雄心勃勃的短语。基本上，>>高罂粟综合症。 >> 就是这样。嗯，你会意识到这对人们来说有多深，他们喜欢听到它，他们的父母对他们说，他们的老师对他们说，朋友对他们说，无论如何，从他们很小的时候起。让人们不再这么想需要一些时间。
**English / Original**
do or whatever. And they also kind of got punished for being too creative or wanting too much or thinking too big or too ambitious, whatever. the most countries or cultures have some sort of phrase for being too ambitious. Basically, >> tall poppy syndrome. >> That's one. Um, and you realize like how deep this is in people and that they like heard it and their parents said it to them, their teachers said them, and friends said to them, whatever, from when they were like quite little. and getting people to just like not think that way takes some real time.
## 00:32:21
**中文**
>> 让某人从不相信自己到相信自己的最有效途径是什么？ >> 我认为小重复胜。就像你做了一些你认为自己做不到的事情，或者你尝试了一些感觉太雄心勃勃或太高期望的事情，而它奏效了，你会说，“好吧，再试一次。”你会做像史蒂夫·乔布斯那样的事情吗？如果有人担心他会盯着他们的眼睛，然后得到“不，没有那样的事”，他会喜欢什么。
**English / Original**
>> What's the most effective path to get someone from not believing in themselves to believing in themselves? >> I think small repeated wins. Like you do something you didn't think you could do or you kind of try something that felt, you know, too ambitious or too high expectation and it works and you're say, "Okay, try it again." Do you do anything like Steve Jobs where he would like if someone was worried he would like stare into their eyes and get No, nothing like that.
## 00:32:47
**中文**
>> 我不这么认为。 >> 好像你能做到。 >> 我我我不，我不，我不像一个人，我不做励志演讲。我不，我不喜欢那些困难。 >> 你最喜欢的策略游戏是什么？ >> 我已经很久没有玩过除了和朋友一起玩扑克之夜以外的游戏了。呃，我希望我有。我想我不得不说扑克，但我呃我怀念很棒的棋盘游戏。你最喜欢的棋盘游戏是什么？
**English / Original**
>> I don't think so. >> It's like you can do it. >> I I I don't I don't I'm not like an in I don't do inspirational speeches. I don't I don't do like the hards none of that. >> What's your favorite strategy game? >> I have not played a game other than like my poker night with friends in so long. Uh I wish I had. I guess I'll have to say poker, but I uh I miss like great board games. What was your favorite board game?
## 00:33:15
**中文**
>> 没有一款棋盘游戏能让我像这样一次又一次地玩。我不喜欢像武士刀是有史以来最好的棋盘游戏之类的人。但它们都很有趣，而且它们很有趣，因为它们就像新的一样，你必须喜欢找出一套新的挑战和规则以及其他一切。当你思考商业世界时，我认为你建立公司的方式与几乎任何其他能够建立公司、愿意建立公司的人不同。是什么允许你这样做？我实际上认为每个大公司都有很大不同。我不认为这是一个独特的事情。我想就像如果你列出一个清单
**English / Original**
>> There's like no one board game where I be like, I want to play that like again and again. I don't have like like I'm not like someone who's like Katana is the best board game of all time or whatever. But they're all fun and they're fun cuz they're like new and you have to like figure out a new set of challenges and rules and everything else. When you're thinking about the business world, I think you build your company differently than almost anyone else is able to build companies, is willing to build companies. What allows you to do that? I actually think every big company is pretty different. I don't think this is a unique thing. I think just like if if you make a list of the
## 00:33:48
**中文**
20 家最大的科技公司或其他什么公司，它们在战略、运营方式和文化方面都存在惊人的不同。我认为我们与其他人有很大不同，但这并不是一个深刻的见解。你认为你喜欢的超能力是什么？我认为我们做得非常好，对其他人都没有相信的事情抱有原则性信念，尽管这是显而易见的人们应该相信的事情，然后将所有的部分和人才放在一起以使其发生。
**English / Original**
20 biggest tech companies or whatever, they're all like shockingly different from each other in terms of their strategy and how they operate and their culture. I think we are quite different than everybody else, but that's not a deep insight. What do you think your like superpower is? I think we did a really good job of a principled conviction on something that no one else believed even though it was the obvious thing one should believe and then putting together all of the pieces and the talent around that to sort of make it happen.
## 00:34:18
**中文**
>> 是什么让你拥有了其他人没有的信念？嗯，这个问题我想了很多。我不知道。这对我们所有人来说似乎都是显而易见的，以至于我更担心我们喝的是自己的酷爱饮料，而不是其他人都错了。但事后看来，我们显然是对的。我不明白其他人有如此深刻的心理障碍和缺乏信念。这很奇怪。我花了很多时间试图理解这一点。
**English / Original**
>> What allowed you to kind of have that conviction that where other people just didn't? Um, I have thought about this a lot. I do not know. It seemed so clearly obvious to all of us that I was more worried that we were drinking our own Kool-Aid than everybody else was wrong. But with the benefit of hindsight, we were clearly right. And I don't understand the like deep mental block and lack of conviction from everybody else. It's very strange. I I have I have spent a lot of time trying to understand this.
## 00:34:56
**中文**
>> 你在你知道人类对“为什么”或“否”的搜索中找到任何解释吗？ >> 嗯，我的意思是，有很多明显的事情，比如群体思维，比如刚刚发生的重大转变并不经常出现，指数曲线也不会经常保持如此长时间的强大。但正如你所知，也许在 2016 年到 2018 年之间，我们必须非常幸运，这需要很多伟大的信念，但到 2019 年，当然到 2020 年，我们就不应该真正存在。
**English / Original**
>> Did you find any explanation in your you know man's search for why or no? >> Um I mean there's all the obvious stuff about like group think and like the big transformations just come don't come along that often and exponential curves don't stay powerful for so long for so often. But like you know maybe between 2016 and 2018 we had to get really lucky and it required like a lot of great belief but then by 2019 certainly by 2020 we shouldn't have really gotten to exist.
## 00:35:35
**中文**
谷歌应该直接逃跑。是的。我认为杰夫·贝索斯（Jeff Bezos）称其为商业奇迹，他们创建了 AWS，然后在大约七年的时间里没有任何激烈的竞争。我觉得 OpenAI 就像另一个商业奇迹。显然，这里有一些关于为什么大公司会变得僵化并固守自己的方式的原因，这在很多方面也对他们有帮助。你但这就像我的意思是这太棒了。我认为大公司不再永远是唯一的主导力量是件好事。那就真的很糟糕了。嗯，但显然，这些商业奇迹确实发生了，但它们不应该发生。
**English / Original**
Google should have just run away with it. Yeah. I think Jeff Bezos called it like a business miracle that they built AWS and then didn't have any serious competition for like seven years. And I feel like OpenAI is like another business miracle. There's clearly something here about why big companies get sclerotic and set in their ways and it helps them in a lot of ways too. U but this is like I mean this is wonderful. I think it's great that the big companies don't stay the only dominant forces forever. That'd be really bad. Um but there's clearly something where these business miracles happen and they shouldn't.
## 00:36:08
**中文**
>> 这是正确的还是应该的？ >> 嗯，我认为他们所做的对世界来说是伟大的，>> 对吗？但回过头来解释一下，在 2019 年，为什么 OpenAI 会像拥有大量资本、人才和其他一切的巨头所允许的那样做我们所做的事情。好像很难解释。 >> 微软为什么给你钱？
**English / Original**
>> Is that right or should they? >> Well, I think it's great for the world that they do, >> right? But to go back and explain in 2019 why OpenAI was like allowed by the giants with huge amounts of capital and talent and everything else to do what we've done. It's like hard to explain. >> Why did Microsoft give you the money?
## 00:36:28
**中文**
>> 嗯，我认为更容易解释，谷歌有 Deep Mind，而微软没有人工智能赌注，你知道大公司觉得他们应该在所有主要技术领域发挥作用。是不是有点像他们认为它会很大，但后来低估了它有多大？ >> 我认为这对他们来说非常棒。我不知道我们是否为微软增加了 1 万亿美元、2 万亿美元或其他任何市值，但我认为这已经很多了。嗯，我认为他们已经获得了令人难以置信的技术和云增长，并将继续下去。所以，是的，我确信它比他们想象的要大，但我认为他们下了一个很好的赌注，并且做得非常好
**English / Original**
>> Um that I think is easier to explain which is Google had Deep Mind and Microsoft did not have an AI bet and you know big companies feel like they should have something in play in all of the major areas of technology. Was it kind of like they think it's going to be big but then underestimated how big it would be? >> I think it's been like great for them. I don't know if we've added1 trillion$2 trillion dollars or whatever of market cap to Microsoft but I think it's been a lot. Um and I think they have gotten incredible technology and cloud growth and will continue to. So yeah, I'm sure it's bigger than they thought it was going to be, but I think they made a good bet and have done super well with
## 00:37:03
**中文**
对此感到非常高兴。
**English / Original**
it and very happy about that.
## 00:37:05
**中文**
>> OpenAI 有不同的版本。第一个是研究实验室。下一个是产品公司，你说就像你将产品公司固定在研究实验室一样，这与大多数公司所做的完全相反，现在你基本上会像一家大型基础设施公司，几乎所有开放的价值都将来自低利润基础设施。然后您还说，基本上，为了过渡到该业务的下一阶段，您的大脑工作方式不一定是自然设计的以这种模型运行的方式。您需要改变什么以及喜欢下一阶段的内容是什么
**English / Original**
>> There's been different versions of OpenAI. The first one was the research lab. Next one was the product company and you kind of said that like you bolted on the product company onto the research lab which is the exact opposite of what most companies do and now you're basically going to be like a massive infrastructure company and like almost all the value from open is just going to come from this like low margin infrastructure. And then you also said that basically in order to transition into the next phase of this business it's not necessarily something the way that your brain works is naturally like designed to operate in that kind of model. What do you have to change and like what is that next phase of the
## 00:37:36
**中文**
商业？我不回答这个问题是因为我不喜欢我认为这现在是一个像直接>>的事情，我们还没有准备好谈论，但是呃我对下一阶段感到非常兴奋，我想我已经找到了如何将我非常擅长并且非常热衷的事情与我们接下来的10倍或100倍的增长相结合。那么，>> 研究实验室 Sam 是如何过渡到产品公司负责人 Sam 的，对您来说最大的转变是什么？我的意思是整件事非常不同。感觉就像是两份几乎完全不相关的工作。这并不是说我做了一个，现在我做了另一个，因为我
**English / Original**
business? I don't answer this because I don't like I think this is now a getting into like a like a direct >> something we're not quite ready to talk about but uh I am very excited for the next phase and I think I have figured out how to align something that I am very good at and very passionate about with what will be the next like 10 or 100x of our growth. So >> how did the transition of Sam the research lab head to Sam the product company head like what was that what were the biggest transitions for you on that? I mean the whole thing was just extremely different. Like it has felt like two almost completely unrelated jobs. And it's not quite to say like I did one and now I do the other cuz I
## 00:38:15
**中文**
仍然负责研究实验室。嗯，但它们几乎是不同的事情，而且运行研究实验室绝对没有让我为以任何方式运行产品公司做好准备。 YC 的经历是否让您做好了准备>>更多？嗯，就像我看到很多人必须扩大大公司的规模一样。 >> 终于坐上驾驶座是不是很有趣？
**English / Original**
also still am responsible for the research lab. Um but they are almost separate things and definitely running the research lab did not prepare me for running the product company in really any way. Did the YC experience prepare you >> more? Um like I had watched a lot of people have to scale big companies. >> Was it fun to kind of like finally get in the driver's seat?
## 00:38:40
**中文**
>> 并不好玩。ChatGPT 发布后的第五天，用户数突破了 100 万。第一天我看着使用量上升，下午回落；第二天升到更高峰值后回落；第三天又升到更高峰值再回落。每天研究人员都会说：“哦，那只是公关带来的一阵疯狂昙花一现，
**English / Original**
>> No. Um I >> the fifth day after Chad GBT launched was the day we crossed a million users and I had like watched it go up the first day and then come down in the afternoon and then go up the second day to a higher peak and then come down, go up the third day to a higher peak and then come down. And each of these days the researchers were like, "Oh, that was some crazy flash in the pan PR thing.
## 00:39:04
**中文**
这就像结束了，你知道这不会发生。”我在 YC 已经见识够多了，我知道，当某件事像这样完全有机地发展时，它对我来说就具有所有即将发生的事情的光谱特征。然后在第五天，它的用户数量突破了一百万，我回到家，就在那时，我真正意识到我们即将成为一家公司，它会发展得非常快，这将是一个疯狂的事情，就像我们即将转变一样我很快就进入了一家大公司，我看到了这些创始人所经历的一切，当我回到家时，奥利说，“哦，我看到你跨越了一百万年。
**English / Original**
This is like over and you know that's not going to happen." And I had seen enough at YC that I knew that when something was growing like that completely organically, it this had all of the spectral signature to me of something that is like was going to happen. And then on the fifth day, it crossed a million users and I came home and that was when it really hit me that like we were about to become a company and it was going to go very fast and it was going to be a crazy like a like we were just going to turn into like a big company real quick. And I had watched what these founders went through and I came home and Ollie was like, "Oh, I saw that you crossed a million years.
## 00:39:47
**中文**
恭喜你。”我当时想，“你不知道这有多糟糕。你不知道会发生什么。这不仅对我不好，对你也不好。就像我们过着这种美好安静的生活一样，你知道，这真的很棒。这就像穿过大炮一样。这就是发生的事情。但这就像一个非常突然的转变。我知道它会来，我看过其他人经历过它，我知道这不是一次愉快的经历，但我当时想，好吧，我们正在被大炮射击。开始了。如果你知道这最终会发生并且智力会变得足够好，你是否会潜意识地为自己做好多年的准备？
**English / Original**
Congratulations." I was like, "You have no idea how bad this is. You have no idea what's about to happen. It's not just bad for me, it's bad for you, too. Like we have this nice quiet life, you know, it's really wonderful. It's about to like kind of go through a cannon. And that is what happened. But it was like a very abrupt transition. I knew it was going to come and I had watched other people go through it and I knew that it was like not a pleasant experience, but I was like, well, we're being shot at the cannon. Here we go. Were you like subconsciously just like preparing yourself for years if you know that this is eventually going to happen and the intelligence is going to get good enough
## 00:40:23
**中文**
哪里会有神奇的产品呢？ >> 我的看法是，我理智上知道这会在某个时刻发生。我不知道什么时候。当然，我不知道那会是那个时刻，但是我决定假装自己，并且我成功地欺骗了自己，表现得好像这不会发生一样。嗯，管理研究实验室确实是我能想象到的最酷、最有趣、最令人惊奇的工作和生活方式。
**English / Original**
where like there will be a magical product? >> My take on it is that I intellectually knew it was going to happen at some point. I had no idea when. And I didn't know that was going to be the moment, of course, um but that I had decided to pretend to myself and I had successfully deluded myself into a sort of acting like it wasn't going to happen. Um truly running the research lab was the coolest, most fun, most amazing job and lifestyle setup I could possibly have imagined.
## 00:40:54
**中文**
>> 怎么会呢？ >> 我的意思是，你好像一点压力都没有。呃，这在智力上令人难以置信的满足。这是最聪明的一群人，他们可能是上个世纪（也许更久）发生的最重要的工作，我不知道。我有一个像前排的座位。那是许多代人中难得一见的时刻。这太令人难以置信了。这是最酷的事情。
**English / Original**
>> How so? >> I mean, you were like it not stressful at all. Uh, it was intellectually incredibly satisfying. It was the smartest group of people with probably the most important work that has happened in like the last century, maybe longer, I don't know. And I had this like front row seat. And like that was a once- in many generations moment. It was unbelievable. It was the coolest thing.
## 00:41:21
**中文**
>> 你们也在经历同样的成长吗？你知道，我一直在 Twitter 上看到 Tibo 发帖说，这基本上是另一次重置，这是另一次重置。您是否再次看到同样的聊天 GBTesque 体验？ >> 完全可以。嗯，我认为到目前为止已经有两个巨大的外形因素和相关的增长。 >> 有一种聊天机器人>> 然后编码代理和编码代理完全疯了。我认为很快就会出现第三种，这将是那种执着的代理人、参谋长、同事、同事，无论我们如何称呼他们。那会的，你知道，我想那很快就会到来。所以，我们将经历第三次
**English / Original**
>> Are you guys experiencing that same kind of growth? You know, I keep on seeing Tibo post on Twitter that basically here's another reset, here's another reset. Are you seeing that same like chat GBTesque experience again? >> Totally. Um I think there have been two giant form factors and associated growth so far. >> There was the sort of chat bots >> and then the coding agents and the coding agents are just going totally nuts. There will be a third one soon, I think, which will be this idea of the sort of persistent agents, chiefs of staff, co-workers, colleagues, whatever we call them. And that'll and, you know, I think that'll come pretty soon. So, we're going to go through like the third
## 00:42:01
**中文**
这些波的速度相当快。
**English / Original**
of these waves pretty fast.
## 00:42:03
**中文**
>>所以，很久以前，显然是在去年八月，我看到你发了一些推文，我心想，这对声誉没有帮助。嗯，>>让我们看看。 >> 为什么？ [笑声]你为什么这么做？嗯，>> 好吧，首先，我喜欢电影中的那个场景。就像死星从超空间中升起一样，有戏剧性的音乐，就像一个伟大的场景。嗯，我觉得这很有趣，就像我在滚动 Twitter 一样。
**English / Original**
>> So, a long time ago, apparently in August last year, I saw you tweet something and I thought to myself, this is not going to help the reputation. Um, >> let's see. >> Why? [laughter] Why did you do that? Um, >> well, first of all, I love that scene from the movie. Like the Death Star is coming out of hyperspace and there's this dramatic music and it's like a great it's like a great scene. Um, I thought it was a funny like I was it was like, you know, I was scrolling Twitter.
## 00:42:35
**中文**
我想当时已经是深夜了。我不太记得了。 >> 这就是阴谋论发生的地方。就像你在这儿火上浇油一样。我当时只是觉得这很有趣。好像我不知道。老实说，这不是一条很棒的推文。 >> 呃，我其实觉得这很棒。
**English / Original**
I think it was late at night. I don't really remember. >> This is where the conspiracy theories happen. Like that you're you're like you're feeding the fire here. I just thought it was it amused me at the time. There was like it was I don't know. It was not a great tweet to be honest to be clear. >> Uh I actually thought it was great.
## 00:42:55
**中文**
>> 我觉得这很有趣。 >> 我觉得这很有趣。我想[笑声]我觉得这很有趣。 >> 是的。 >> 嗯，我确实觉得这越来越符合这个世界的感觉。呃[喘气] >> 是的。 >> 呃是的。 >> 好的。是的。这是一个很好的模因。有人解释 OpenAI 和整个行业面临的营销挑战的方式是第一，我们即将创造出我们需要向世界解释的东西。
**English / Original**
>> I thought it was funny. >> I thought it was funny. I think [laughter] I thought it was funny. >> Yeah. >> Um I do feel like this is more and more what the world feels like. Uh [gasps] >> yes. >> Uh yes. >> Okay. Yes. That's a good That's a good meme. The way that somebody explained kind of the marketing challenge for OpenAI and the industry in general is number one, we are close to creating what we need to explain to the world.
## 00:43:30
**中文**
第一，我们即将创造一个可以实现任何愿望的精灵。第二，我们将确保我们的最初愿望广泛造福于人类，并确保我们让世界成为一个让更多的人能够拥有更多愿望的地方。第三，你所希望的空间是非常大和有创造力的，用真正的人类价值观和偏好来解决这个问题将是非常令人兴奋的。但我认为还有第四件事，就是这样。你开始许下这些愿望，计算机实现了它们，然后你会想，我认为这不会实现。
**English / Original**
Number one, we are close to creating a genie that can grant any wish. Number two, we are going to make sure that our first wishes broadly benefit humanity and that we kind of get the world to a place where a lot more people get to have a lot more wishes wishes. And number three, the space of what you can wish for is incredibly big and creative and it'll be quite exciting to like figure that out with real sort of human values and preferences. But but I think there's a fourth thing too which is exactly that. You start making these wishes, the computer grants them, and then you're like, I didn't think that was going to work.
## 00:44:08
**中文**
>> 是的。 >> 现在怎么办？这是一种奇怪的感觉。 >> 是的。这就像我猜想的问题一样，你知道，人们花了一百年的时间试图反驳一些问题是什么？雅可比行列式。是的。这件事。然后有人问克劳德，好像我不知道几天之内或类似的事情。所以，我是我是我是我认为未来会有很多很棒的工作。我真的这么做。我认为我们将会获得很多智力上的满足。我认为大多数工作都会比看起来更适应。但我认为，数学是一个非常重要的例子，我们现在需要仔细研究一些可能并非如此的事情。在
**English / Original**
>> Yeah. >> What now? It's a weird feeling. >> Yeah. It's just like the problem where I guess, you know, people spent like a hundred years trying to disprove some what was it? Jacobian. Yeah. This thing. And then some guy just asked Claude and it was like I don't know within a few days or something like this. So, I'm I'm I'm I think there's going to be lots of great jobs in the future. I really do. I think we're going to have lots of intellectual fulfillment. And I think most jobs are going to adapt more than it seems like they should. But math, I think, is a very important example of something for us to study very closely right now of something that may not go that way. In
## 00:44:45
**中文**
事实上，我想说可能不会走那条路。似乎即使系统变得越来越好，我认识的人却没有人不那么忙碌。每个人都更加忙碌。每个人都在做更多的事情，除了那些会说“哦，我花了一万亿代币”的人。呃，就像我喜欢这个呃东西一样，我看到有人说，“我花了，你知道，不合时宜的代币数量。”然后有人说：“你为什么不更成功呢？”
**English / Original**
fact, I would say probably won't go that way. It seems like even as the systems get better and better, the people that I know that like no one is less busy. Everyone is more busy. Everyone's just doing more stuff except for the people that are like, "Oh, I spent a trillion tokens." Uh, and like what have I love this uh thing that I saw where someone said like, "I spent, you know, ungodly numbers of tokens." And then someone said, "Why aren't you more successful?"
## 00:45:10
**中文**
你知道，长期以来，技术一直向人们承诺，他们将减少工作量，并拥有所有这些闲暇。它已经朝这个方向发展了。就像我认为人们确实比历史上的许多时期有更多的休闲时间，并且在很多方面都有更高的生活质量。但不知何故，我们从未在社会上得到大规模的每周工作 4 小时的承诺。我不认为人工智能会改变这一点。呃，很明显，社会并没有为很多人服务，而人们实际获得的生产力的提高将是一件伟大的事情
**English / Original**
You know, technology for a long time has been promising people that they're going to work less and they're going to have all this leisure. And it has gone in that direction. Like I think people do have more time for leisure than they had at many previous points in history and a higher quality of life in many ways. But somehow we never get the promise of the 4-hour work week at mass scale in society. And I don't expect AI to change that. Uh clearly society is not working for a lot of people and more productivity gains that actually occur to people would be a great thing
## 00:45:52
**中文**
我怀疑他们会的。我怀疑这会发生。但我真正钦佩人们的一点是我们的期望不断提高。我们总是想要更多。我们思考为彼此创造新的事物，为彼此创造自己想要的东西，你知道，这就像一个相对的游戏。人们非常关注自己相对于其他人的表现。因此，推动经济发展的竞争，以及我认为想要对其他人有用、创造一些东西、为整个集群提供服务的非常美好的愿望。我预计这种情况会继续下去，我认为我们都会比我们想象的更忙
**English / Original**
and I suspect they will. I suspect that will happen. But a thing that I really admire about people is our expectations go up. We always want more. We think of new things to do to create for each other to want for ourselves and we, you know, it's like a it's like a relative game. People are like very focused on how they're doing relative to other people. And so the competition that drives the economy and the kind of I think the the the very wonderful desires about wanting to be useful to other people and create something and be of service and that whole cluster. I expect that to keep going and I think we're all going to be much busier than we thought we were supposed to be in a post super
## 00:46:33
**中文**
在情报世界中，我们仍然会抱怨它，但私下里我们会很高兴。 >> 随着我们的直接投入与类似价值创造的相关性越来越少，您认为地位游戏会发生怎样的变化？我不认为它会像我们所珍视的东西一样直接。我怀疑这将是非常人性化的事情。
**English / Original**
intelligence world and we're still going to complain about it but secretly we're going to be happy. >> How do you think the status games change as less and less of our direct input is correlated with like value creation? I don't I don't think it will feel at all like our direct like the things that we value. I suspect will be things that are like very human.
## 00:46:56
**中文**
>> 嗯，就像一件事就像为人们做饭一样。你不喜欢在世界上创造一堆价值，但它喜欢表达爱。 >> 你正在创造价值，因为这就像你没有创造传统意义上的经济价值那样的体验。嗯，为人们做饭就是一个很好的例子。
**English / Original**
>> Well, like one thing is like cooking for people. You're not like creating a bunch of value in the world, but it like shows love. >> You are creating value in that it's like those are the experiences that you're not creating like economic value in the maybe traditional sense. Um, cooking for people is a great example.
## 00:47:14
**中文**
我怀疑，在机器人能够出色地烹饪食物之后，人们一起做饭和吃饭仍然很重要。您是否认为一部好的赫斯特主义几乎就像现存时间最长的作品中最伟大的作品一样？以《圣经》为例，它很可能在 1000 年后仍然具有影响力，因为迄今为止它在过去 2000 年里一直具有影响力。你是否认为如果你必须推断出人类仍然关心的事情是什么，就像最原始的最早的事情是什么？你知道，我们热爱冒险，我们热爱美好的探索，>>烹饪。反对进化生物学通常是一个糟糕的赌注。
**English / Original**
I suspect that people cooking and eating together will remain important long after robots can do a great job cooking food. Do you think that a good heristic would almost be like the greatest works of the the the longest surviving works? So let's say the Bible for example, odds are it's still going to be impactful like a thousand years from now because it's been impactful for the past 2,000 years so far. Do you think that if you had to like extrapolate out what are the things that humans are still going to care about, it's like what is the most primal earliest thing? You know, we love adventure, we love a good quest, >> cooking. Betting against evolutionary biology is like usually a bad bet.
## 00:47:53
**中文**
>> 是的。 >> 所以我会假设这些事情会继续下去。 >> 您最后一次意识到自己不够雄心勃勃是什么时候？ >> 我的意思是，我绝对严重低估了计算投资。你知道要采用正确的思维模式吗？ >> 是的，但我对金融市场之类的东西感到兴奋。我不知道。
**English / Original**
>> Yeah. >> And so I would I would assume those things continue. >> When was the last time that you realized that you weren't like being ambitious enough? >> I mean, I definitely badly undersshot on the compute investments. Could you have known going in with the right mental model? >> Yes, but I got like psyched out by the financial markets or something. I don't know.
## 00:48:17
**中文**
>> 那显然是个错误。 >> 今后怎样纠正？ >> 希望我能吸取教训。我还会犯新的错误，但不会再犯这个错误。 >> 算力可能正在成为有史以来规模最大的基础设施工程。 >> 是的。你们会尝试在 OpenAI 内部纵向整合一切吗——从发电、生成 token，到最终通过 ChatGPT 或 Codex 服务用户——还是会依靠许多合作伙伴？显然，我们不会真的把一切都放进 OpenAI，但会努力建立一条比迄今更有效运转的供应链。
**English / Original**
>> That was clearly a mistake. >> How do you correct that in the future? >> Uh well, I mean hopefully I'll learn from it and I I'll make some new mistakes, but I won't make that one again. >> On the compute side, this is kind of like the biggest infrastructure project of maybe all time or is about to be. >> Yeah. Are you going to try and like vertically integrate under OpenI's hood everything from like power generation to like token generation to you know serving some person in chap or codeex or something like that or are you going to try and have a bunch of partners? We're not literally going to try to do it all inside of OpenAI obviously but we will try to do a better job of a well
## 00:48:55
**中文**
供应链的运作比我们迄今为止所做的要好。如您所知，我们将芯片设计和模型设计结合在一起，这很好。我认为我们不需要以同样的方式将电子产品整合在一起，因为这更像是一种商品。呃，但是当你真正考虑必须聚集在一起才能产生情报的整个供应链时，我就是这样。
**English / Original**
functioning supply chain than we have done so far. like you know we we have brought chip design and model design together and that's been good. I don't think we need to bring like electron production together in the same way because that's more of a commodity. Uh however I am when you really think about the whole supply chain that has to come together to produce intelligence.
## 00:49:22
**中文**
我想说的是，人们相对过多地关注创建更好算法的算法，而没有足够关注可以创建更多数据中心的数据中心，而在机器人和真正自动化的供应链的世界中，你完全可以想象这样做。你可以像花费一个数据中心的思维能力来驱动一队机器人来制作更多的数据中心副本。这可能是一件非常美妙的事情。
**English / Original**
I would say there is relatively too much focus on algorithms that create better algorithms and not enough focus on data centers that can create more data centers, which in a world of robots and a truly automated supply chain, you can totally imagine doing. You can like spend a data center's thinking power to drive a fleet of robots to make more copies of the data center. And that's probably a very wonderful thing to do.
## 00:49:51
**中文**
呃，如果我们对额外计算最终将解锁的内容是正确的，那么相对于该计算的其他用途。你花了多少时间思考如何成功地设计一个完整的机器人进入最终的未来，在那里智能可以生产更多>>智能花在思考几乎所有的事情都像执行一样，这是一个非常明显的想法，它很容易你可以相对快速地说这是需要组合在一起的部分>>但然后喜欢让整个机器和所有这些公司一起工作，嗯，你不知道伟大想法的荣耀，并试图喜欢思考伟大的想法，但喜欢大量的磨练
**English / Original**
uh relative to other uses of that compute if we're right about what that additional compute will eventually unlock. How much of your time is spent thinking about how to like successfully design that fully robot into end future where intelligence can just produce more >> intelligence spent thinking about almost all goes into like execution like the idea that's a very obvious idea it's very easy you can like kind of relatively quickly say here's the pieces that need to come together >> but then to like get that whole machinery and all those companies working together um that that you know none of the glory of the big idea and trying to like think the big thoughts but like a lot of grinding
## 00:50:26
**中文**
>> 当你想到类似执行的时候。
**English / Original**
>> when you think of like execution ution.
## 00:50:28
**中文**
这对您来说通常意味着什么？ >> 不存在像“我的意思是，你只是喜欢执行问题所需的任何步骤并弄清楚如何实现它”的程度。嗯。 >> 但你知道，弄清楚如何为新晶圆厂的建设提供资金，与弄清楚如何组建一支优秀的芯片设计团队，然后让他们与研究团队合作，然后真正让供应链运行起来，是非常不同的。嗯，就像每一个都是一种非常不同的方法。我知道布莱恩·切斯基所做的一件事是，他谈论的是无耻地试图找到专家是谁以及任何给定的事情，然后基本上只是
**English / Original**
What does that typically mean for you? >> Not there's no typical there like the I mean to the degree that there is it's that you just like do whatever step is required in the problem and figure out how to make it happen. Mhm. >> But you know, figuring out how to like finance new fab build out is very different than figuring out how to get a great chip design team together and then get them to work with the research team and then actually get the supply chain running. Well, like each of those is like a very different approach. One thing that I know that Brian Chesky does uh is he talks about like shamelessly trying to find whoever the expert is and any given thing and then basically just
## 00:51:11
**中文**
他有什么问题就去问他们。就好像他试图跟上某件事的进度。如果你需要在非常短的时间内精通某件事，那么你做类似事情的过程是什么？ >> 一定要找到专家并与他们交谈，尽可能多地阅读。呃，我没有很多像伟大的战略一样的东西，我这里没有很多像新奇的策略。我一直非常感激并惊喜地发现，如果人们提出要求，专家们愿意帮助他们。呃，这就像人类的一件非常美好的事情。
**English / Original**
go ask them whatever question he has. as if he's like trying to come come up to speed on something. What is your process for doing something like that if it's something new that you need to become good at in a very rapid period of time? >> Definitely finding the experts and talking to them, reading as much as I can. Uh I don't have a lot of like great str I don't have a lot of like novel strategies here. I I've always been really grateful and pleasantly surprised by how much experts are willing to help people if they ask. Uh, it's like a very nice thing about humanity.
## 00:51:46
**中文**
>> 我听你说过的一件事是你应该总是要求你想要什么。 >> 嗯，因为不是每次都能得到它，但有时你会得到。 >> 有时你会这样做。 >> 当你这样做时，奇妙的事情就会发生。 >> 您最后一次提出在别人看来绝对疯狂的要求而您却得到了是什么时候？
**English / Original**
>> One thing I've heard you say is you should always ask for what you want. >> Um, because not all the time you get it, but sometimes you do. >> Sometimes you do. >> And when you do, amazing things can happen. >> When was the last time that you asked for something that would seem absolutely insane to someone else and you got it?
## 00:52:02
**中文**
>> 最近有一次，我为此登上一架飞机，但现在还不能谈。 >> 好吧，那就再往前一个，说一个能谈的。 >> [笑声] >> 从某种意义上说，Codex 就是一个例子。它不是最近的一次，但很有启发性。我们当时远远落后于 Claude Code，试图用一款编程应用击败它，看起来像一项疯狂的“神风式”任务。通常的共识是，这类事情不会成功：既然对手已经在某个产品类别取得势头，就应转向下一个机会，继续争胜只是徒劳。但我们认定这件事确实
**English / Original**
>> Actually, it was this recent time I got on a plane that I still can't talk about, but it >> Okay, go back one more. Go back one more that you can talk about. >> [laughter] >> I mean in some sense codeex was an example of this like this is not the most recent one but it was one that I think it's instructive. Um, we were way behind cloud code and it seemed like a kind of crazy kamicazi mission to try to beat them with a coding app. And you know the like the consensus is that this kind of thing never works and you just move on to the next one. But you know it's like a fool's errand to try to like win when someone else already has momentum in a particular product category. But we decided we thought it was really
## 00:52:43
**中文**
重要的。我们请了一个团队来做这件事。
**English / Original**
important. We asked a team to do it.
## 00:52:46
**中文**
他们执行了商业史上非常罕见的合法的令人难以置信的事情，现在它是我所知道的大多数最好的编码员使用的大多数最终模型的产品。嗯，这感觉像是一件不可能的事情，但如果我们没有问团队，嘿，我们有一个非常重要但极其艰巨的任务对你来说就不会发生。
**English / Original**
They performed a legitimate like unbelievable very rare in the history of business thing and now it is the product that most of end model that most of the best coders that I know use. Um and that felt like an impossible thing but if we hadn't asked the team like hey we have a really important but extremely hard mission for you just wouldn't have happened.
## 00:53:08
**中文**
>> 你为什么做出这个决定？你为什么不放弃？ bec 觉得这几个非常战略性的领域之一将会很快发生，而编码对 RSI 来说是如此重要，更不用说经济价值了，我们只是没有，感觉我们不能放弃 YC，你基本上拥有最精炼的使命版本，只是试图增加世界上的创新量，我的直觉是，如果你真的喜欢思想，呃，为什么你决定在 OpenAI 而不是 YC 上工作？你几乎可以说你可以对增加世界创新量产生更大的影响
**English / Original**
>> Why did you make that decision? Why didn't you just give up? bec felt like one of these few very strategic areas that was going to happen very quickly and coding is so important to RSI to say nothing of the economic value that we just didn't it didn't feel like one we could give up on YC you basically had the mo most distilled version of what the mission was is just trying to increase the amount of innovation in the world my hunch is that if you actually like thought uh why did you decide to go work on OpenAI instead of YC? You could almost make the argument that you could just have a bigger impact on increasing the amount of innovation in the world
## 00:53:51
**中文**
通过从事>>，当时还没有那么智能化。就像我知道我的一生都想从事人工智能工作，我知道这将是我能接触到的最重要的事情。对我来说，这就像我的热情。我只是认为这非常重要，但我只是想这么做。
**English / Original**
through working on >> it wasn't that intellectualized at the time. It was just like I kind of knew that I mean my whole life I wanted to work on AI and I kind of knew that it would be the most important thing I could ever touch. Like for me it was like my passion. I just and I did think it'd be really important, but I just wanted to do it.
## 00:54:11
**中文**
>> 最初的几周是什么样的？我知道有这样的地方，我不知道你是否将其描述为一个营地，但人们基本上就像所有人一样聚集在一起进行某种静修，当时它甚至不像是一家公司。我认为这就像>>就像我们开始后的前几周一样。不，我们当时在格雷格·布罗克曼的公寓里。
**English / Original**
>> What were those first few weeks like? I know that there was this I I don't know if you describe it as a camp, but people just basically like all got together on some kind of retreat and it wasn't even like meant to be a company at the time. I think it was just like >> like the first few weeks once we started. No, we were we were in Greg Brockman's apartment.
## 00:54:26
**中文**
>> 是的。 >> 嗯，我们大概有 10 个人、12 个人。 >> 你知道，为了让它顺利进行，我们付出了所有这些工作，然后有一天我们出现了。 >> 嗯。第一天我就想，>> 你知道，1 月 4 日，类似的事情。 >> 就好像，我们就到了。我们要做什么？我们应该买一块白板。我们应该开始谈论想法。也许我们应该写论文。我有这样的感觉，哦，我们做了什么？就像那是一个非常疯狂的时刻。嗯，>>你是否已经喜欢致力于这个世界，并且其他很多人都喜欢这样做？我们花了几年时间才真正熟悉并弄清楚我们要做什么。只是这不是我的意思我们知道
**English / Original**
>> Yes. >> Um and there were maybe like 10 of us, 12 of us. >> And you know, it had been all of this work to get it going and then we showed up one day. >> Mhm. The first day I was like, >> you know, January 4th, something like that. >> And it was like, so here we are. What are we going to do? We should get a whiteboard. We should start talking about ideas. Maybe we should write papers. And I had this like, oh what have we done? Like it was like a really crazy moment. Um, >> had you already like committed to the world and a whole bunch of other people like were doing it? It took it took a couple of years to like really get our groove and figure out what we're going to do. It just it was not I mean we knew
## 00:55:08
**中文**
我们想弄清楚如何构建人工智能，>>但除此之外，伙计，真的不清楚。当你在曼哈顿项目的丛林阶段中跌跌撞撞时，你如何最有效地跌跌撞撞地穿过树林，快速找出不该做的事情？我的意思是，如果某件事不起作用并且你没有想法，你可以杀死它。
**English / Original**
that we wanted to like figure out how to build AI, >> but beyond that, man, really unclear. When you're in the like stumbling through the woods phase of this type of, you know, Manhattan project, how do you most efficiently just stumble through the trees to rapidly figure out what not to work on? I mean, if something's not working and you run out of ideas, you can kill it.
## 00:55:36
**中文**
这样比较容易一些。真正困难的是，当某些东西运行得非常好时，你什么时候决定放弃其他东西以使其运行得更好？ >> 所以，在 OpenAI 历史上有很多非常重要的时刻，其中一件事情开始真正发挥作用，我们扼杀了其他好的事情，以使最好的事情更好地发挥作用。
**English / Original**
That's kind of easier. The really hard thing is when something is working super well, when do you decide to kill the other things to make it work even better? >> So, there have been a lot of quite important moments in OpenAI history where one thing started to really work and we killed other good things to make the best thing work better.
## 00:55:57
**中文**
因此，当 GPT3 开始工作时，我们关闭了诸如机器人之类的东西，我们非常高兴真正专注于此。然后，当编码代理最近开始工作时，我们关闭了像 Sora 这样我们也非常兴奋的东西，并关闭了浏览器来真正解决这个问题。而这很难做到。嗯，假设您向 Sora 这样的新业务投资了 10 亿美元。您如何决定该业务是否会成为 OpenAI 的支柱？
**English / Original**
So when GPT3 started to work, we shut down things like robotics stuff that we're really excited about to really focus on this. And then when coding agents started to work recently, we shut down things like Sora that we were also really excited about and the browser to really work on this. And that is difficult to do. Um let's say you invest a billion dollars into some new business like Sora. How do you decide whether or not that business is going to like become a you know OpenAI pillar?
## 00:56:24
**中文**
>> 哦，不。这会非常成功。就好像将计算和精力投入到编码代理中更为重要。 >> 带我参加其中一个会议，就像想象一下您正在参加那个会议一样。我想也许你在那次会议上说我们在这个东西上花了一年多的时间，大量的资金，大量的计算，大量的人员和资源，大量的动力，人们使用它，他们喜欢它，然后你决定我们要停止使用它。
**English / Original**
>> Oh, no. It would have been super successful. It was just like it was more important to put the compute and the energy into coding agents. >> Take me into one of those meetings like imagine you're in that meeting. I guess maybe you were in that meeting where you were saying we've spent a year plus on this thing, huge amounts of money, huge amounts of compute, lots of people and resources, a lot of momentum into it, people use it, they love it, and then you decide we're going to pull the plug.
## 00:56:49
**中文**
比如你如何拨打这个电话？ >> 是的。这不像是一次会议，这不是一次会议。这就像我认为这是真实的，就像逐渐意识到这种计算有更重要的用途，这些人嗯，你知道这个产品方向，我们将做出一个非常痛苦的决定来实现这一目标。
**English / Original**
Like how do you make that call? >> Yeah. It's not like a it's it's not a one meeting thing. It's like a I think it's a real it's like a somewhat gradual realization that there is a more important use of this compute these people um you know this product direction and we're going to make a very painful decision to get there.
## 00:57:11
**中文**
>> 一旦你不得不杀死他们的孩子以将他们转移到另一个孩子身上，你如何重新调整人们？ >> 人们有点了解使命、利害关系以及重新定位以实现目标的必要性。因此，即使他们此刻不高兴，有时他们会非常高兴，有时他们会说，“是的，这对任务来说是正确的。”但即使他们此刻不高兴，他们也会说，“我明白我们为什么要这样做。”持续重新关注超级智能似乎是一件好事。
**English / Original**
>> How do you realign people once you do have to like kind of kill their baby to move them to another baby? >> People kind of understand the mission and the stakes and the need to reorient to get there. So even if they're like unhappy in the moment, sometimes they're very happy, sometimes they're like, "Yeah, this is the right thing for the mission." But even if they're unhappy in the moment, they're like, "I get why we're doing this." And the kind of continuing refocus towards super intelligence is like a good thing.
## 00:57:38
**中文**
您认为目前会有一些项目被扼杀吗？ >> 我认为更难追求。 >> 是的。约翰·科里森（John Collison）有一句令人惊叹的台词，他说，基本上世界上的一切，如果你环顾四周，就很难让事情发生，甚至就像建造公园长椅一样，这是极其困难的，所以当你环顾四周时，你可以把世界想象成一个充满激情项目的宇宙>>我认为，如果你像史蒂夫·乔布斯那样，你会喜欢创造一些东西，让每天有十亿人可以与它互动，因为就像我们一样。你必须深入思考我如何设计出人们喜欢的东西
**English / Original**
Do you think that there's going to be projects currently that are going to get killed? >> I assume harder to pursue. >> Yeah. There's this amazing line from John Collison where he said basically everything in the world if you just look around it's like so difficult to make things happen even like getting park bench built it's incredibly difficult and so when you look around you can kind of think of the world as like a universe of passion projects >> and I think that if you are in like Steve Jobes's position where you're going to like create something where a billion people might interact with it every single day for are like ours. You have to like think deeply about how do I like design something that people are
## 00:58:18
**中文**
会喜爱、最好又不会因此不快乐的产品。你怎样思考设计？ >> 我非常幸运，能与 Jony Ive 一起设计美好的事物。我从他身上学到很多：他会在尝试寻找解法之前真正研究问题；在彻底理解问题之前，甚至不允许自己过多思考具体方案。
**English / Original**
going to love and ideally not be unhappy about. How do you think about design? >> I feel super lucky to get to work with Johnny IV on designing beautiful things. Mhm. >> And I have learned so much from him about how he really studies a problem before trying to get to the solution and not not even letting him think too much about the solution until he really designs really understands the problem.
## 00:58:44
**中文**
而我想，这是一把我之前没有珍惜的钥匙。就像真正伟大的设计更多的是关于理解问题而不是顿悟。如果你试图冲向某件事或将自己过多地锁定在这件事上，嗯，你就不会做得那么好。我认为 iPhone 是人类迄今为止共同创造的最伟大的技术。这是一件不可思议的事情，但我不再喜欢与它的关系了。我关掉了通知，所以我现在更喜欢它了。
**English / Original**
And I think this is a key that I didn't appreciate before. Like really great design is way more about understanding the problem than the flash of insight. And if you try to rush towards the thing or lock yourself too much into the thing, um, you will not do as good of a job. I think the iPhone is the greatest piece of technology humanity has collectively yet made. It is an incredible thing, but I don't like love my relationship with it anymore. I turned off my notifications, so I actually like it much better now.
## 00:59:16
**中文**
>> 是的，我一直保持请勿打扰。 >> 这还不够。我只是喜欢关闭除极少数事情之外的所有通知。嗯，我从来没有戴过它们，因为我只是，你知道，如果我想看的话我可以看看。 >> 甚至消息应用程序。 >> 甚至消息应用程序。这就像一次重大的生活升级。我删除了 Tik Tok，因为它太强大了。
**English / Original**
>> Yeah, I keep myself on do not disturb. >> That wasn't even enough. I just like I turned off notifications for everything except a very small number of things. Um, and I never have them on because I just, you know, I can like look at if I want to look at it. >> Even messages apps. >> Even messages apps. That was like a big life upgrade. And I deleted Tik Tok because it was just like too powerful.
## 00:59:38
**中文**
呃，>>你对Tik Tok上瘾了。 >> 你知道，我呃，所以发生了一件疯狂的事情。当我们构建 Sora 应用程序时，我让自己沉迷于 Tik Tok，因为我只是想学习。我当时想，你知道，我以前从未真正使用过它。我的意思是，我喜欢人们给我发 Tik Tok 之类的东西，但我从来没有沉迷其中。我当时想，我真的不想建造这样的东西，>>吸收人们的时间，但不是>>，我喜欢它。我喜欢抖音。我真的觉得这很棒。嗯，>> 然后我想我可以控制它。我当时想，“哦，你知道，这实际上很有趣，但我只使用它大约 10 分钟来放松一下
**English / Original**
Uh, >> you were addicted to Tik Tok. >> You know, I uh, so here's a crazy thing that happened. When we were building the Sora app, I made myself get addicted to Tik Tok cuz I wanted to just like learn. I was like, you know, I I had never really used it before. I mean, I like people would send me a Tik Tok or whatever, but I never got sucked into it. And I was like, I really don't want to build something that is going to have that kind of thing, >> absorb people's time, but not >> and I loved it. I love Tik Tok. I really thought it was great. Um, >> and then I thought I could like control it. I was like, "Oh, you know, it's actually kind of fun, but I only use it for like 10 minutes to wind down before
## 01:00:09
**中文**
就在床上，我完全可以控制它。”然后有一天晚上我在沙发上呆了一个小时，然后某个周六下午我在沙发上躺了大约 3 个小时，我觉得这真的不是我想象中的 iPhone 应该有的功能。现在我真的像吸毒一样享受这一刻，但我可以看出这对我不好。然后我喜欢短暂地恢复控制，我每晚只用 5 到 10 分钟，就像睡前放松一下一样。
**English / Original**
bed and I'm like totally in control of it." And then it was like an hour one night and then some Saturday afternoon I was on the couch for like 3 hours and I was like this is like really not what I thought the iPhone was supposed to be about. Now I'm really enjoying in the moment like a drug but I can tell it's bad for me. And then I like briefly got it back under control and I was down to like 5 10 minutes a night whatever you know like a little wind down before bed.
## 01:00:33
**中文**
然后我就够了。我认为 iPhone 很棒，但我觉得自己没有足够的自制力来保留该应用程序，或者我不觉得消息应用程序上的通知对我来说是一件好事。我相信我们会制造出一套令人难以置信的、美丽的、真正有用的、强大的设备。我也确信人们会滥用它们，这会让人们的生活以我们无法想象的方式变得更糟。我们会适应的。但这是关于强大技术的事情。你正在发明一种新设备，探索问题空间的过程是什么？
**English / Original**
Then I was just like enough. I think the iPhone is amazing and yet I did not feel like I had enough self-control to keep that app or I did not feel like the notifications on messaging apps were like a net good thing for me. And I'm sure we will make an incredible, beautiful, like really helpful, empowering set of devices. And I'm also sure that people will misuse them and it'll make people's lives worse in ways we can't imagine. And we'll adapt. But this is a thing about powerful technology. you're inventing a new device, what is that process of exploration through the problem space?
## 01:01:09
**中文**
就像如果你是约翰尼一样，>>我不会代表他回答。嗯，但是他之前好像谈到过这个，但这就像他的过程。你知道，当他设计汽车时，他会喜欢去研究赛车运动的所有历史，然后喜欢人们在汽车驾驶室中使用的不同字体和材料以及为什么，喜欢发动机随着时间的推移发出的不同声音以及为什么有些有吸引力。我的意思是，他会写出他对所有这些的探索的文字书籍，就像令人难以置信的详细的小组件一样。
**English / Original**
Like if you're Johnny, >> I don't answer on his behalf. Um, but he's like talked about this before somewhat, but it's like his process. You know, when he's doing the car, he will like go study all the history of motorsport and then like the different type faces that people use for the text in the cabin of a car and the materials and why and like the different sounds that engines have made over time and why some have appealed. I mean, he'll write literal books of all of his explorations of all of these like unbelievably detailed small components.
## 01:01:39
**中文**
>> 你们是否基本上把这些书拿来并尝试使用它们作为训练数据来制作约翰尼模型？ >> 嗯，不。但在那里尝试那将是一件很棒的事情。是的，他的流程肯定有一部分我不明白。就像我理解学习一样，我理解将一个非常新的概念提炼成伟大的东西。但有一个中间步骤，灵感来自于对问题的真正理解，就像非常新颖的想法，在我看来，这似乎是一下子发生的，但我不明白这一点。
**English / Original**
>> Did you guys basically take those books and like try to like use them as training data to make like a Johnny model? >> Um, no. But that would be a great thing to try there. Yeah, there is definitely a part of his process that I don't understand. Like I understand the studying, I understand the refinement of a very new concept into something great. But there is like a middle step, the inspiration that comes from understanding the problem really well to the like very novel idea kind of that seems to me to happen all at once and I don't understand that.
## 01:02:09
**中文**
>> 当您考虑设计某样东西时，您的想法是怎样的？ >> 无论如何我都不是设计师。我会，我不会，我呃，我会努力很好地认识到自己不擅长什么，而且我不会试图在那里发表强烈的意见。 >> 在商业建设方面，您最不擅长的是什么？
**English / Original**
>> When you're thinking about designing something, how what goes through your mind? >> I'm not a designer in any way. I would I would not I I uh I try to be like pretty good about realizing what I'm not good at and I wouldn't try to have a strong opinion there. >> What are you the worst at on the business building side?
## 01:02:27
**中文**
>> 也许是产品。 >> 真的吗？ >> 也许吧。 >> 好的。如果你不擅长产品，如何找到优秀的产品人员？ >> 在这一点上我从来没有与人们达成完全一致。就像一个商业模因一样，你只能雇佣那些你深刻理解的事情的人。我想它知道他们是否伟大。我认为这显然是不正确的。我也不懂设计。我知道约翰尼的伟大设计。就像当你和他交谈 30 分钟时我可以指出很多事情。这是非常明显的。
**English / Original**
>> Maybe product. >> Really? >> Maybe. >> Okay. How do you find great product people if you're bad at product? >> This is a thing that I've never quite agreed with people on. There's there's like a there's like a business meme that you can only hire people in things that you deeply understand. I think it know if they're great. I think this is just clearly not true. I don't understand design either. I know Johnny's great design. Like there's lots of things I can point to when you talk to him for 30 minutes. It's very obvious.
## 01:02:53
**中文**
>>哪些事情是你尝试积极改进的，哪些事情你只是尝试外包并了解你永远不会成为最好的人之一？ >> 我坚信你应该努力提高自己的优势，并且痴迷于我会在我根本不擅长的事情上变得更好，并且永远不会擅长巨大的陷阱。超级擅长你的强项。
**English / Original**
>> Which things do you try to actively get better at and then which things do you just try to outsource and understand that you're just never going to be one of the best? >> I I am a big believer in you should try to get better at your strengths and the whole like obsession with I'm going to get better at the things that I'm just not good at at all and never going to be good at huge trap. Super good at your strengths.
## 01:03:11
**中文**
>> 好的。如果你必须喜欢武力等级，你最大的优势是什么？ >> 我我讨厌这个问题。嗯，从虚假谦虚的角度来看，我并不讨厌这一点。我认为很难对自己的优势做出任何有洞察力的评价。 >> 你显然很擅长真正团结人们围绕某个目标。 >> 当然。呃，但我不喜欢，我认为我无法教不擅长这一点的人如何擅长这一点。我认为超自然地发生在某人身上的事情是很难我不知道的。
**English / Original**
>> Okay. What are your biggest strengths if you had to like force rank? >> I I hate this question. Um I don't hate this from a false modesty perspective. I think it's like very hard to say anything insightful about your own strengths. >> You're clearly good at really rallying people around some objective. >> Sure. Uh but I don't like I don't think I could teach someone who isn't good at that how to be good at that. I think the things that come supernaturally to someone are very hard to I don't know.
## 01:03:39
**中文**
或者至少就我自己而言，我不喜欢深入了解为什么我擅长于此或该怎么做。虽然我认为我们之前讨论过这类东西，你可以学，但你不能教。 >> 嗯。 >> 嗯，我认为理解这一点非常重要，如果你想擅长类似的事情，根据我的经验要求别人向你解释是行不通的。真正地研究它们，就像和他们一起坐在会议上，尝试观察并自己学习，这确实有效。
**English / Original**
or at least in my own case, I don't like deeply understand why I'm good at that or what to do about it. Although I think we talked about earlier like this category of things that you can learn but you can't teach. >> Mhm. >> Um I think this is quite important to understand and like if you want to get good at something like that, asking someone to explain it to you in my experience never works. Really studying them and like sitting with them in meetings and just trying to observe it and learn it yourself that does work.
## 01:04:06
**中文**
嗯，但是[清嗓子]就像当我确实想在某件事上做得更好时，我会尝试与擅长该领域的人在一起并真正深入研究它。但我认为他们无法向我解释这一点。我认为他们不可能通过与我谈论它来教我它。我认为这是完全正确的。如果你看看世界上最优秀的人学习电子游戏的方式，如果你玩《CS GO》，你喜欢玩一些《CS GO》，所以你有基本的游戏动态，然后你就去看职业选手，看看他们在游戏中的不同点如何在地图上互动等等。
**English / Original**
Um, but [clears throat] and like when there has been something that I do want to get better at, I have tried to just be around someone who's great at it and really deeply study it. But I don't think they would have been able to explain it to me. I don't think they could have like taught it to me by talking to me about it. I think that's totally right. If you look at like the way that the best people in the world learn video games, if you're playing like CS GO, you like play some CS GO, so you have like the basic game dynamics and then you just go watch a pro and like see how they interact on the map at different points in the game and stuff.
## 01:04:34
**中文**
当你考虑组织节奏时，你知道，有野心，所有这些其他事情，但就像你理想情况下随着时间的推移希望你的组织一样，你显然不希望它放慢速度，但理想情况下它甚至会更快。你喜欢怎么烤它？我认为这就像你安排的 90% 的人担任领导职务。好的。您还可以做其他事情。人们有所有这些不同类型的运营节奏以及他们如何尝试经营公司以及这种和那种管理技术。我认为这主要取决于人。对于担任这样的角色的每个人来说，我肯定会想到他们是快速行动者还是缓慢行动者？
**English / Original**
When you think about like organization pace, you know, there's like ambition, all these other things, but like you ideally over time want your organization, you obviously don't want it to slow down, but ideally it even moves faster. How do you like bake that in? I think it's like 90% the people you put in leadership roles. Okay. There's like other things you can do. People have all these different sort of operating rhythms and how they try to run the company and this management technique and that one. And I think it's I think mostly just comes down to the people. Definitely something I think about with everybody in a role like that is like are they a fast mover or a slow mover?
## 01:05:07
**中文**
>> 如果过去没有实际与他们合作过，您如何衡量这一点？ >> 嗯，最好您过去曾工作过。我觉得很多时候公司的高管应该是内部晋升，而不是外部聘用。 >> 好的。 >> 嗯，但是当你确实需要从外部雇用某人时，你会花很多时间与他们交谈，花很多时间检查背景资料，你会尝试以某种随意的方式一起工作。
**English / Original**
>> How do you measure that without actually having worked with them in the past? >> Well, ideally you have worked them in the past. I I think most of the time executives at a company should be promoted internally, not hired externally. >> Okay. >> Um but it when you do need to hire someone externally, you spend a lot of time talking to them, spend a lot of time reference checking, you try to like work together in some kind of casual way.
## 01:05:30
**中文**
略有不同的注释。过去12个月里发生的最痛苦的事情是什么？ >> 老实说，一边生孩子一边努力工作是很残酷的。这实在是太痛苦了。就像你喜欢知道你是我，我想我就像一个非常在场的爸爸亲戚。就像我现在除了工作和和家人一起出去玩之外什么都不做，但我仍然觉得我错过了很多这样的事情。这是非常痛苦的。例如，当你想到像 Masa 这样的人时，他的大脑和他看待世界的方式是如此不同？我认为他最终会成为这十年来取得巨大成功的人之一。
**English / Original**
slightly different note. What was the most painful thing that happened in the last 12 months? >> Honestly, having kids and working really hard at the same time is brutal. It's just extremely painful. Like you like know you're I I and I think I'm like a very present dad relative. Like I don't do anything but work and hang out with my family really at this point, but I still feel like I'm missing so much of this like one-time thing. It's very painful. When you think of someone like Masa for example, what about like his brain and the way that he sees the world is so different? I think he will end up being like one of the wild successes of this decade.
## 01:06:12
**中文**
>> 嗯，>> 不可思议的人。 >> 亲爱的朋友，不可思议的人，坚定的信念和信念，一点也不害怕大数字和规模，这太棒了。呃，世界上像 Masa 这样的人并不多，我们应该非常感谢他们。 >> 是什么让他喜欢我，我不知道你是否愿意与他交谈，但是 >> 呃，我的意思是，据我所知，他总是这样。
**English / Original**
>> Um, >> incredible person. >> Dear friend, incredible person, massive conviction and belief and not afraid at all of big numbers and scale and it's great. Uh there are not many Masa like people in the world and we should be very grateful for them. >> What made him like what what I I don't know if you've like talked with him but >> uh I mean as far as I can tell he was like always like this.
## 01:06:37
**中文**
>> 你也有那种对规模完全不设上限的观念吗？ >> 没有。我认为 Masa 是独一无二的人物。 >> 你会不会把 OpenAI 看成某种“下金蛋的鹅”？ >> 哪种意义上？ >> 随着时间推移不断孵化出许多高价值事物，同时建立起提升世界智能水平的核心能力。
**English / Original**
>> Do you also have the same sort of just like no con like no ceiling concept of scale? >> Not I I think Masa is like a N of one character. >> Do you kind of view open AI as a little bit like the golden goose? >> In what way? um spawning a bunch of very valuable things over time and just building like a core competency of increasing intelligence in the world.
## 01:07:02
**中文**
>> 我并不这么认为。我明白我明白你在说什么，但感觉我们不像是吐出金鸡蛋。感觉就像我们正在构建这种复合的东西。 >> 我认为我从您那里学到的我最喜欢的心理模型之一是真实趋势与虚假趋势的想法。 >>哦，是的，这是>>这是一件重要的事情。就像每当人们谈论泡沫或其他任何事情时，我总是有点困惑。就像我一样，你知道，我研究了很多沃伦·巴菲特和查理·芒格，所以他们喜欢谈论泡沫和被高估的东西。我试图破译你如何判断某件事是真的还是假的以及它是否是
**English / Original**
>> Not really how I think of it. I get I get what you're saying, but it it doesn't feel like we're just like spitting out golden eggs. It feels like we're building this kind of compounding thing. >> I think one of the my favorite mental models that I've taken from you is this idea of real trends versus fake trends. And >> oh yeah, this is a >> this is an important thing. Like whenever people talked about bubbles or anything else, I was always kind of confused. Like I'm, you know, I studied Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger a bunch and so they love to talk about bubbles and things being overvalued. I was trying to like decipher how do you figure out whether or not something is real or fake and whether or not it's
## 01:07:36
**中文**
会坚持并继续，或者只是会，你知道，恢复到平均值。 >> 你发现了什么？ >> 嗯，我认为你的心理模型基本上是如果有一小群人喜欢什么是真正的趋势与虚假的趋势？一个虚假的趋势是，你知道，VR 的情况是有人进行了很多炒作，>>但有人买了这个东西，他们并不真正喜欢它。他们并没有真正开始喜欢围绕使用它的体验来设计他们的生活，然后它就被束之高阁。
**English / Original**
going to persist and continue or it's just going to, you know, revert to the mean. >> And what did you figure out? >> Well, it was I think your mental model of basically if there's a small group of people like what is a real trend versus a fake trend? A fake trend is, you know, the VR situation where someone there's a lot of hype, >> but then someone buys the thing, they don't really love it. They don't really start to like design their life around the experience of using it and then it sits on the shelf.
## 01:08:01
**中文**
>> 对我来说，ChatGPT 几乎每天都在使用。有时工作很多，我会用三个小时；有些天几乎不用，但它持续存在于我的生活里。如今，无论在公司内部还是一般意义上，你怎样判断某件事是真趋势还是假趋势？ >> 原则相同：是否存在一种真实、深刻而持久的需求。 >> 你是怎样形成这套理念或思维框架的？
**English / Original**
>> Whereas like for me with Chadbt, it's pretty much every day and maybe for like sometimes I need to work a lot so I spend like 3 hours or some days it's like almost nothing but it's like there persistent in my life. How do you kind of like figure out now whether or not something is a real trend or a fake trend inside of the company and just generally >> same principle like is there a real deep enduring >> how did you come to that philosophy or mental framework?
## 01:08:28
**中文**
>> 嗯，我喜欢观察很多初创公司。呃，在 YC 工作有很多令人惊奇的事情，但只要你愿意花时间尝试分析它并理解它，你就能真正弄清楚很多事情。您过去是否有任何认为在当今环境下是错误的大型心理框架，并且随着时间的推移，随着智力的爆炸，它们会继续变得更加错误？
**English / Original**
>> Well, I like kind of watched a lot of startups. Uh the the there are many amazing things about working at YC but just the amount of data you get and as long as you're willing to like spend the time trying to analyze it and make sense of it, you can really figure out a lot of things. Are there any big mental frameworks that you used to have that you think are wrong in today's environment and will be continue to get more wrong over time as like intelligence explodes?
## 01:08:53
**中文**
>> 我认为其中很多框架如今都不再成立。它们在当时未必是错的——当然，我当时肯定也有许多判断错误——但现在有很大一部分已经错了。今天的初创公司看起来仍与十年前大致相同，因为既有经验告诉大家创业就该这么做。固然也有些区别，比如少招人、多花钱购买 Codex 的 token；但它本应呈现出非常不同的形态。我遇到过少数尝试用完全不同方式创业的人，
**English / Original**
>> I mean, I kind of think a huge amount of them are they weren't necessarily wrong at the time, although I'm sure I was wrong about a bunch of things, too, but a huge amount of them are wrong now. Um, I think a startup of today still looks mostly like a startup of 10 years ago because that's what the received wisdom says you're supposed to do. And sure, it's different in some ways. People are like, well, I'm going to hire less people and spend more money on tokens for Codeex or whatever. But it should probably look very different. And I have met a few people who are trying to do a startup in a completely different way.
## 01:09:30
**中文**
但对大多数人而言，“使用 AI”仍只是意味着更多地使用 Codex；这似乎远远不够。
**English / Original**
But most people just use it means like use more codecs and uh that doesn't seem like enough.