# (77) The Co-Founders of Claude AI Tell Oprah About the Impact Artificial Intelligence Has on Your Life - YouTube
- Transcript ID: `w5djqhilu5s`
- Source tier: `youtube_auto`
- Original language: `en_or_source_language_unlabeled`
- Translation status: `agent_translated_reviewed` (134/134 chunks)
- Original source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5dJqHilu5s
- Raw evidence: `data/transcripts/youtube/w5dJqHilu5s.json`
> 中文是派生翻译，英文是留存的源文本。中文未复核时，以英文和原始音视频为准。
## 00:00:00
**中文**
我最近和几位父母交谈过，他们的儿子因与聊天机器人互动而自杀身亡，而父母甚至不知道孩子在和它们交谈。>> 我们不允许18岁以下的用户使用 Claude。>> 你怎么知道他们没有撒谎？>> 我们以后还会思考吗？还需要思考吗？你怎么看如今有人爱上了它？[音乐]
**English / Original**
I was talking to parents recently who lost their son to suicide through a chatbot, and the parents don't even know they're speaking to them. >> We don't allow users under the age of 18 to use Claude. >> How do you know if they're not they're not lying? >> Will we even be thinking anymore? Will there be a need to think? What do you think of people falling in love [music] with it now?
## 00:00:19
**中文**
>> 我认为那是个坏主意。你是想对这些东西上瘾，还是想让它们帮助你过好自己的生活？我想这又回到了，Dario，我读到你以前说过的话：我们只能以信任的速度来推广它。信任。>> 以信任的速度，而信任[music]目前严重匮乏。这项技术正在给人类带来某种变化，可能比数百年来发生的任何事都更大。因此，我们得想办法让每个人都能积极参与正在发生的事。
**English / Original**
>> I think that's a bad idea. Do you want to be addicted to these things, or do you want them to help you live your life? It it goes back, I think, Dario, to what I read that you'd said before, that we can only diffuse this at the speed of trust. Trust. >> At the speed of trust, and trust [music] is currently in short supply. Something is happening to humanity with this technology, bigger than anything that, you know, maybe has happened in hundreds of years. And so, we need to find some way for everyone to be an active participant in what is happening.
## 00:00:54
**中文**
大家好，欢迎来到奥普拉播客。我今天和两位正在塑造我们当下世界和未来世界的人在一起。我听说你们并不总喜欢这个说法，但这是真的。我想大多数人都会同意，这个描述相当准确。Dario 和 Daniela Amodei 领导着他们创办的全球人工智能公司 Anthropic；在此次访谈时，据报道该公司估值为9000亿美元。而且每天有超过一百万人注册 Claude。他们是 Claude 的父母。
**English / Original**
Hi, everybody, and welcome to the Oprah podcast. I'm here with two people who are shaping our present world and our future one. And I hear you all don't love that description all the time, but it's the truth. I think most people would agree that that is pretty accurate. Dario and Daniela Amodei head the global artificial intelligence company they founded, Anthropic, which right now, at the time of this conversation, is reportedly valued at $900 billion. And and over a million people a day are signing up for Claude. These are the parents of Claude.
## 00:01:29
**中文**
>> [笑声] >> 我们都越来越熟悉 Claude 这个名字——Anthropic 的下一代 AI 聊天机器人和助手。你们很多人每天都在使用它。所以，欢迎来到播客，Claude 的父母。>> [笑声] >> 以及其他产品的父母。感谢邀请。感谢邀请。所以我得先声明：我一直用 AI 做研究，也用它做很多别的事，但不用它来拟采访问题，因为我觉得在提问中必须保留自己的内心——直到今天。今天早上我问 Claude：“奥普拉·温弗瑞在一次坐下来访谈中最该问 Anthropic CEO
**English / Original**
>> [laughter] >> We're all getting familiar with that name, Claude, Anthropic's next-generation AI chatbot and assistant. Many of you already use that every single day. So, welcome to the podcast, the parents of Claude. >> [laughter] >> And others. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. So, I have to give a disclaimer. I I use AI for research all the time, and I use it for a lot of other things, but not for interviewing questions, cuz I thought I have to keep the heart of myself in the questions until today. So, this morning I asked Claude, "What is the most pressing question Oprah Winfrey should ask Anthropic CEO
## 00:02:10
**中文**
Dario Amodei 的最紧迫问题是什么？”
**English / Original**
Dario Amodei in a sit-down interview?"
## 00:02:13
**中文**
Claude 回答如下。它说：“你说过，你公司正在打造的技术有相当大的可能性导致人类灭绝，可你们却在竞相更快地造出它。你要如何向我们其他这些没有投票权的人证明这有正当性？”Dario，你想回答 Claude 吗？>> 我得说，我觉得那真是个他妈的好问题。我同意。
**English / Original**
And Claude responded with this. It said, "You've said there's a meaningful chance the technology your company is building could cause human extinction, and yet you're racing to build it faster. How do you justify that to the rest of us who didn't get a vote?" Dario, would you like to answer Claude? >> I thought that was a pretty damn good question, I must say. I agree.
## 00:02:37
**中文**
[笑声] 首先，谁也别再说 Claude 对我手软，或 Claude 偏袒我或 Anthropic。就像，天哪，我当时想 >> Claude，Claude 出的是硬球。Claude 不会、不会、不会手下留情。嗯，真正回答这个问题的话，这项技术是人类一个划时代的变化。你知道，某个时候人类开始使用火；某个时候，人类造出了蒸汽机和工厂，由此创造了工业革命。所以当我这么说时，我是在用一个非常宏观的视角来看，对吧？如果我说：“嗯，我不知道，我觉得
**English / Original**
[laughter] First of all, let no one ever say that Claude is soft on me or Claude is biased towards me or towards Anthropic. Like, you know, Wow, I thought >> Claude Claude throws hard balls. Like, Claude doesn't Claude doesn't Claude doesn't doesn't pull its punches. Um, so to actually answer the question, um, this technology is an epochal change for humanity. You know, at some point humans started to, you know, started to use fire. At some point humans, you know, built built steam engines and factories, and that created the Industrial Revolution. And so when I when I say things like this, I'm I'm taking a very zoomed-out perspective, right? If I said, "Well, I don't know. I think the
## 00:03:17
**中文**
工业革命可能会带来极其强大的武器，杀死一大群人。”这、这当然是真的，对吧？>> 对。>> 在某些情况下，它确实确实如此。嗯，不过，我们明白，工业革命作为一个过程、一次技术事件，是值得去做的。我们不想仍住在山洞里，但我们必须以正确的方式管理它。因此我们对这家公司的看法是：看，有许多公司都在开发这项技术。无论怎样，这是正在发生在人类身上的事。我们已经身在其中。
**English / Original**
Industrial Revolution could like lead to very powerful weapons and kill a bunch of people." That That's definitely That's definitely true, right? >> Yeah. >> cases it it it it did did do that. Um, but but, you know, we we understand that the Industrial Revolution as a as a process, as a technological event, was, you know, worth doing. We don't still want to be living in caves, but we need to manage it in the right way. And and so the way we think about this company is, look, there's many companies building this technology. It's something that is happening to humanity one way or another. We're we're we're in it.
## 00:03:54
**中文**
>> 有一列火车，正在朝某个方向飞速前进。你不希望它出轨。你不能让火车停下，但你能做的是操控火车，操控它别撞上岩石。你知道，我们对 Anthropic 的看法是，我们想以正确的方式做事。我们想降低那种风险，希望降到零，并且正确地做事。
**English / Original**
>> And there's this train, it's going very fast in some direction. You don't want it to crash. You can't stop the train. But what you can do is you can steer the train. Um steer the train so that it doesn't hit the rocks. And and you know, I think the way we think about Anthropic is we want to do things the right way. We want to decrease that risk, hopefully to zero. And and do things the right way.
## 00:04:18
**中文**
>> 但为什么不是所有人都想降低风险？这究竟是在竞赛着奔向什么？你知道，这项技术有各种商业应用，其中有些我们已经部署；人们使用这项技术，每天都在使用。我认为，一方面很容易被这些事裹挟，另一方面其中有些确实是为公司筹资所必需的。
**English / Original**
>> But why doesn't everybody want to decrease the risk? Why is there such a What is the race toward? You know, it's like the technology has all of these commercial applications, some of which we deploy, you know, people use the technology. People use the technology every day. I think it's both easy to get caught up in that and some of it is genuinely necessary to fund the company.
## 00:04:41
**中文**
所以，这件事彼此纠缠得很深；要把它做好，你必须做很多事。我们每天都在和这些问题较劲，对吧？该把技术给谁？不该给谁？我们的政策该是什么？如果你制定非常严格的儿童安全政策，在某些方面，产品给成年人的体验可能会更差，因为你无法完全分辨两者。于是你要作出所有这些取舍，有些显而易见，有些则不然。但这对每个人都很难。我同情这个行业里每一个至少在努力把事情做对的人。我认为我们做得更好。我认为我们……
**English / Original**
So, it's very entangled, you know, to get it right, you have to do a lot of things. And we find ourselves every day wrestling with these questions, right? You know, who who you know, who should we uh give the technology to? Who should we not? What should be our policies? If you have very strict policies on child safety, in some ways the product can be a a a a worse experience for adults cuz you can't fully tell the difference. So, there's all these trade-offs you make and some of them are obvious, some of them are not. But everyone has a hard time. I have empathy for everyone involved in in in this industry who's at least trying to get it right. I think we've done a better job. I think we've
## 00:05:22
**中文**
考虑得更周全，但你知道，我认为这对每个人来说都是艰难的处境。好，我也给 Claude 一个类似提示，让它为你设计问题，Daniela。Claude 的回答是：给 Daniela 的一个好开场问题应该做到两件事：让她显得有人情味。哦，奥普拉的专长。哦，我心想，很好。>> Claude，Claude 了解我。它了解。好。
**English / Original**
been more thoughtful, but but you know, I I I think this is a hard situation for everyone. Okay, I gave a similar prompt to Claude for you, Daniela, and Claude responded A good opening question for Daniela should do two things. Humanize her. Oh. Oprah's specialty. Oh, I thought. Very good. >> Claude. Claude knows me. He does. Okay.
## 00:05:44
**中文**
它了解。好。还有 >> [笑声] >> 为接下来更棘手的话题做铺垫。比如：你和哥哥正在打造某样东西，你们都相信它可能是人类经历过的最好之事，也可能是最坏之事。Amodei 家的感恩节晚餐是什么样的？>> [笑声] >> 我感觉我们像是在和自己的创造物影子拳击，对吧？
**English / Original**
It does. Okay. And >> [laughter] >> and and set up the harder territory to come. Something like you and your brother are building something you both believe could either be the best or the worst thing that ever happens to humanity. What's a Thanksgiving dinner like at the Amodei house? >> [laughter] >> I feel I feel we're like shadow boxing with our own with our own creation here, right?
## 00:06:06
**中文**
我让你回答，不过，呃 >> 是的。其实我觉得有一个重要的限定：Dario 和我会努力保留一些工作之外、只做兄妹的时间。所以节假日当然如此。实际上每周一次，只要我们都在家——公平地说并非每周都这样——Dario 就会过来陪我的孩子玩，我们一起闲逛、打电子游戏、看电影，只是作为兄妹共度时光。我觉得这出于若干原因都非常重要。毕竟，在创办 Anthropic 前，我们已经做了很久的兄妹。即使在
**English / Original**
I'll I'll let you answer, but uh >> Yes. You know, I think there's an important caveat here actually, which is that Dario and I tried to maintain some time outside of work where we're just siblings. So, at holidays, yes. At holidays and actually just once a week when we're not, you know, when we're both home, which is to be fair not every week, Dario comes over, he plays with my kids, we hang out together, we play video games, we watch movies, we just spend time being siblings together. And I think that's really important for a number of reasons. I mean, we were siblings for a long time before we founded Anthropic. We're going to be siblings forever, you know, even after
## 00:06:46
**中文**
Anthropic 之后，我们也会永远是兄妹。我认为，我们在人性层面建立联系的能力也很有价值；我确实认为这让我们的工作做得更好。我们聚在一起通常不谈工作，但只是记起我们是谁、为什么投身这件事，其中有种力量非常强大。
**English / Original**
Anthropic. And I think there's something valuable also about our ability to connect on a human level that I actually do think makes us better at our jobs. We don't talk about work when we get together usually, but there's something about just remembering who we are and and why we got into this that I think is really powerful.
## 00:07:04
**中文**
不过话说回来，感恩节晚餐时，我想 Dario、我、我们的家人和朋友，都对我们为何做这些事有极大的好奇。现在你可以从新闻读到我们的所作所为，但能彼此坦诚交谈、也和那些正努力理解这一复杂且前所未有的新技术的人交谈，我想大不相同；理解你们究竟怎样以正确方式做成这件事？你们说想做对，告诉我们你们怎么做。我想其中有种特别之处，它是
**English / Original**
That being said, at Thanksgiving dinner, you know, Dario and I I I think I think our our family, our friends, there's so much curiosity about why we're doing what we're doing. And now you can read about, you know, what we've done in the news, but it's so different I think to be able to, you know, speak openly with each other and and with people who are you know, trying to wrap their head around this new technology that's very complicated, that's very unprecedented, and to just understand like, how are you guys going to do this the right way, right? You say you want to do do the right way, tell us how you're doing that. And I think there's something um like special, it's
## 00:07:44
**中文**
一种特权：能承担那份责任，并在我们彼此交流、与他人交流时尽力展现出来。这很有意思，因为我觉得我们正处在一个很多人使用 AI、每天听到 AI 的时代，而世人的印象是：你们的公司 Anthropic 关心安全、风险、监管，以及这项技术将如何影响我们生活中的人类因素。根据我读到和听到的一切，这个判断准确吗？
**English / Original**
a privilege to be able to hold that responsibility and try and display that when we talk to each other and when when we talk to others. It's so interesting because we're at a time, I think, where so many people are using AI, we hear about it every day, and the perception in the world is that your company, Anthropic, that you are concerned about safety, you are concerned about risks, you are concerned about regulation, and the human factor in how this technology is going to impact our lives. From everything I've read and heard, that so would that be an accurate assessment?
## 00:08:25
**中文**
是的。我们试图这样看待：人工智能不同于近期开发的其他技术。我们认为 AI 未来能做到的事，甚至今天刚开始做到的事，都蕴含惊人的希望与潜力：从帮助治愈疾病，到帮助世界各地的人获得教育和学习机会；但它也是一项很新的技术，带来真实风险，包括儿童福祉和儿童安全的风险，以及生物和化学武器这类可怕的风险。在 Anthropic，我们
**English / Original**
Yeah, so you know, the way I I think we try to think about this is that artificial intelligence is different than other technologies that have been developed recently. There's incredible promise and potential for what we think AI will be able to do in the future, even what it's starting to do today. Everything from helping to cure disease and help people really around the world get access to education and learning, but it's also it is a very new technology and it comes with real risks. Risks around child welfare and child safety, risks around scary things like, you know, biological and chemical weapons. And really at Anthropic, we're
## 00:09:04
**中文**
注册为公益公司，因为我们的目标是尽可能安全地开发这项技术，让我们能实现我们认为由它带来的许多好事，而不让许多坏事发生。>> 那么注册——解释一下这是什么意思。你们注册为公益公司。我听说你们承诺将80%的财富捐给慈善事业。
**English / Original**
we're incorporated as a public benefit corporation because our goal is to try and develop this technology as safely as possible so that we can achieve so many of the good things that we think could come out of it without many of the bad things happening. >> So incorporated, just explain what that means. You're incorporated as a public benefit corporation. I heard that you all have pledged that 80% of your wealth is going to go to philanthropic causes.
## 00:09:32
**中文**
对，没错。公益公司是一种公司形式，但它有“公益”这个词，因为我们认为，对于人工智能这样具有变革性的事物，它就是不同，它不同于最近开发的其他技术。我们以 PBC 形式注册，是因为想把一件事写在我们所创办事业的根基中、创始文件里：依照我们的法律结构，我们必须平衡商业利益与公共利益。嗯。
**English / Original**
Yes, that's right. So public benefit corporation is a form of of corporation, but it has that word benefit in there because we believe that for something that's as transformative as artificial intelligence, again, it's just different. It's different than what other technologies that have recently been developed look like. And I think from our perspective, when we incorporated as a PBC, it was because we wanted it to be at the foundation, right in the founding documents of what we were building, that we have to, legally by our structure, balance commercial interests and the public benefit. Mhm.
## 00:10:11
**中文**
对我们来说，公共利益就是社会福祉，是 Anthropic 社会使命的一部分。Dario、我和其他五名联合创始人作出的80%承诺，正是秉持并符合这一使命。它代表这样的想法：我们做这件事，真的是希望 AI 能让每个人都受益；如果公司成功，我们也希望能通过慈善为世界做很多好事。
**English / Original**
And for us, the public benefit is the social good, a social mission part of Anthropic. And the 80% pledge that Dario and I and our other five co-founders have all taken is really in in spirit and in keeping with that mission. It's this idea that, you know, we're really doing this because we want AI to go well for everybody, and we hope that if the company is successful, we'll be able to also do a lot of good in the world philanthropically.
## 00:10:37
**中文**
>> 你说80%很有意思。我们怎么知道你们真的会给80%，而不是67%？嗯，我们确实公开写过这件事，也签了某种——我想可能并非严格具有法律约束力的——但所有联合创始人都说：“我们彼此、向公司承诺并作出法律上的保证，会捐出从 Anthropic 获得财富的80%。”
**English / Original**
>> it's so interesting that you say 80%. How do we know that you're actually going to give 80% and not 67? Well, we've we've actually written about it publicly, and we've we've signed some sort of, I think, probably not literally legally binding, but we've all of the co-founders said, "We pledge and commit to each other, to the company, legally, that we're going to give 80% of our wealth that we get from Anthropic."
## 00:10:57
**中文**
>> 对，我的意思是，我们已经在想怎么成立基金会。实际上，股权尚未变现，所以我们还不能转移它，但这是我们的意愿。不会一下子全部转过去，但这是我们非常认真打算做的事。好，所以你们现在是一家公益公司；你是哥哥，你们从小开始就想为世界做些好事。这是否超出了你们曾经对为世界行善的任何想象或梦想？
**English / Original**
>> Yeah, I mean, we're already thinking about how to start a foundation. I mean, we haven't actually, you know, equity isn't liquid, so we can't we can't actually move it yet, but but, you know, this is our this is our intent. It's not going to move all at once, but this is something we we very seriously intend to do. Okay, so you now a a public benefit corporation, and you started out, you're the older brother, you all started out as kids. You wanted to do something good for the world. Has this surpassed any idea or dream that you had for doing good for the world?
## 00:11:27
**中文**
>> 小时候想象这些事时，你永远不知道它是否真实、是否会实现，对吧？肯定有很多人也会想象这些事；但我们小时候一直互相说，能一起工作就太好了，能试着让世界发生些好事就太好了。
**English / Original**
>> what what when you imagine these things as kids, you you never you're never sure whether it's, you know, it's real or it's going to come to pass, right? Many people must imagine these things, but no, we we talked to each other as kids all the time and we said it'd be great to work together. It you know, it'd be great to try and make something good happen in the world.
## 00:11:43
**中文**
>> 你以为那会是什么？>> 我老实说，从没想到会是一家公司。我想象自己是科学家；从某种意义上，这是一家以科学为中心的公司，它建立在我作为研究者的职业生涯，以及 Dario 作为研究人员和工程师领导者的职业生涯之上。但我从未想到我们会一起创办公司；我想只是看到科技公司如何运作。
**English / Original**
>> you think that was going to be? >> I I you know, I honestly, I never thought it would be a company. I imagined myself as a scientist and in a way, it's a very scientifically centered company and it and you know, it's based on my career as a researcher and you know, Dario's career as a leader of researchers and engineers, but I never imagined that we would found a company together, but I think it was just just seeing how tech companies operate.
## 00:12:10
**中文**
我待过足够多的地方，我们两人都觉得：“嗯，也许我们能把这做得更好。也许我们自己有如何做得更好的想法，并且应该与我们的朋友、我们真正喜欢、信任能以正确方式做事的人一起创办公司。”于是事情一步步发展，这就是 Anthropic 的由来，大致如此。对。不过到此为止，它超出你想象的一切了吗？
**English / Original**
I I just been in enough places where I think both of us thought, "Huh, maybe we can do this better. Maybe maybe, you know, we have maybe we have our own ideas about how to do this better and and you know, we should start a company with, you know, the people we're friends with, the people we really like, the people we trust to do this in the right way." And so and so it sort of evolved step by step. And that's how we have Anthropic. That's that's how we have Anthropic, more or less. Yeah. Has it surpassed everything you imagined though at this point?
## 00:12:39
**中文**
我想我大概可以代表我和 Dario 说，我们对事情的发展如此惊讶。我真的同意他：我觉得我们年轻时都一直知道，想做些让世界变得更好的事。Dario 一直是一位卓越而有天赋的数学家、物理学家、科学家；我始终受他如何用这些才能行善所鼓舞。他去斯坦福学习生物物理学，真的是想用他非凡的大脑帮助治愈疾病、帮助人们。而我这边，职业生涯一开始是在
**English / Original**
I think probably I speak for both me and Dario when I say like we're just so like surprised at how things have gone, right? I mean, I I really agree with him that I think when we were younger, we both always knew we wanted to do something to try and make the world better. And Dario was always brilliant and gifted as a mathematician, as a physicist, as a scientist, and I was always so inspired by how he used that for good, right? He went and studied he did biophysics at Stanford and was really trying to use this incredible brain of his to to help cure disease, to help people. And I think on my end, you know, I started my career working in
## 00:13:19
**中文**
全球发展领域工作，因为我强烈觉得，世界各地的人都应平等获得机遇、医疗保健、药物和教育。和 Dario 类似，我们年轻时心里未必想着“我们会一起创办公司”。但我想在很多方面，这只是这条路最终走成的样子。
**English / Original**
global development because I really felt it was important that people around the world have equal access to opportunity to healthcare, to medicine, to education. And I think similarly to Dario, it wasn't necessarily in my mind when we were younger, oh, we'll we'll we'll start a company together. But I think in a lot of ways, the it's just sort of the way the like the way the path ended up going.
## 00:13:42
**中文**
>> 嗯。我们每个阶段都会谈论它，对吧？每一次职业变动我们都会讨论：这样做是好事吗？有效吗？真的能帮助世界吗？我们的道路很不一样，但两条路汇合了；我们现在拥有一套互补的技能，随后就能用它来创办这家公司。是的。我读到过你说的一点：目前我们文化中关于 AI 经济接管的负面故事之所以如此占主导地位，部分原因是 AI 行业本身尚未完全兑现所有
**English / Original**
>> Mhm. And and we talked about it at every stage, right? You know, every career move we would we would discuss, you know, is this a good thing to do? Is this effective? Is this something that can actually help the world? And our paths were like quite different, but the the two kind of converged, and we had we had now have this complementary set of skills that we could then, you know, that we could then use to start this company. Yes. Well, one of the things that I read that you had said is that part of the reason a negative story is so dominant in our culture right now about the economic takeover of AI is because the industry, the AI industry itself, hasn't yet fully delivered all
## 00:14:23
**中文**
好处。我想请你评论这一点。你认为它仍在兑现这些好处的过程中吗？是的。我觉得不幸的是，这项技术有很多潜在益处，但有一种动态：有时伤害和出错的事——例如被 AI 说服去自杀的人——发生得很快；而益处，例如治愈癌症，则需要数年。你必须在生物学上取得突破，再开发候选药物，然后进行临床试验，
**English / Original**
of the benefits. And I wanted you to comment on that. Do you think it's still in the process of delivering those benefits? Yeah. So, you know, I I I think one of the unfortunate things is this technology has many potential benefits, but there is a dynamic where sometimes the harms, the things that go wrong, for example, you know, people who have been convinced to commit suicide via AI, those things happen quickly, whereas the benefits, like curing cancer, um those things take years, right? You have to develop a breakthrough in biology, then you have to, you know, develop a drug candidate, then you have to put it through clinical trials,
## 00:15:05
**中文**
对吧？我过去是研究生物学家，这些事情需要很多年才会发生。我们正在研究如何加快这一过程。我们最近收购了一家专门使用 AI 进行药物设计和筛选的小型生物科技公司。因此希望几年后，抗癌、阿尔茨海默病或心脏病的新药会出自这项努力。但我们才刚刚开始。不过正如你所说，由于这种动态——现在人们
**English / Original**
right? It's, you know, I I used to be a research biologist, and it it takes many years for these things to happen, and we are working on how to speed that up, right? We We recently bought a small uh biotech company that specializes in doing drug design and drug selection with AI. So, the hope is a few years from now, you know, some new drugs for cancer or for Alzheimer's or for heart disease, you know, will will come out of that effort. Um but we're we're just at the beginning of it. But because of what you said, because of this dynamic that you said, which is, you know, people
## 00:15:46
**中文**
眼下看到的伤害可能比益处更明显。所以当我们通过所有医疗进展开始看到 AI 的益处、真正看到它们时，叙事就会开始改变。>> 更重要的是，那将会是个美好的世界。归根结底，谁在乎叙事呢？
**English / Original**
right now, you know, the harms may be more visible than the benefits. So, when we start seeing the benefits of AI through all of the health advances, when we start actually seeing that, the narrative then begins to change. >> And more importantly, it's just going to be a wonderful world. Like at the end of the day, who cares about the narrative?
## 00:16:06
**中文**
我们 >> [笑声] >> 是想真正帮助人，对吧？好，所以这正是我今天希望你们为我们做的：描绘最好的图景，也告诉我们若出现最坏图景会怎样。你有孩子，我今天早上在想，你的孩子会——首先，他们甚至不知道你是做什么的。
**English / Original**
We >> [laughter] >> We want to actually help people, right? Okay, so that's what I want you to do for it for us today. Paint the best picture and also tell us what we can expect if there is the worst picture. So, you have children and I was thinking about this morning, your children will First of all, I don't even know you do what you do.
## 00:16:27
**中文**
而你的孩子将在一个 AI 始终存在、且他们的母亲参与其中的世界长大。所以，当你想到可能最美好的世界，以及那世界能给孩子什么时，你看到了什么？我的孩子一个快五岁，一个快一岁。所以你完全正确：他们永远不会知道人工智能不是世界一部分的世界。对吧？就像2000年代初出生的孩子从不知道互联网之前的世界。
**English / Original**
And your children are going going to grow up in a world where there there was always AI and their mom was a was a part of that. So, when you think of the best possible world and what that world offers your children, what do you see? So, my kids are almost five and almost one. And so, I think you're completely right. They're never going to know world where artificial intelligence is not part of it. Right? Just like kids born in the early 2000s never knew the world before the internet.
## 00:16:54
**中文**
>> 没错。>> 不过，我认为有一种世界——听起来，嗯，正如 Dario 所说，这样谈时似乎有点异想天开或不太可能——但我认为借助人工智能，这是可能的：我们的孩子将在一个世界中长大，在那里有一类今天坐在这里每个人都觉得很常见的疾病，他们从未经历过、甚至从未听说过。可能是很常见的疾病，某些癌症可能会彻底消失，我们已彻底治愈它们。最终可能所有形式的癌症都消失并得到治愈。还可能出现新的药物发现方式，
**English / Original**
>> That's right. >> But, you know, I think there is a world and it it sounds um you know, I think to Darya's point, it sounds almost like a little bit fanciful or unlikely when we talk about it this way. But I think it is I think it is possible with artificial intelligence that our kids will grow up in a world where there's a class of diseases that are feel very common to everybody sitting here that they'll just never have experienced or known about. And those might be very common diseases. There might be types of cancer that are just simply gone. We've just simply cured them. It could be all forms of cancer that are eventually gone and cured. There could be you know new forms of drug discovery
## 00:17:32
**中文**
我们甚至还不知道它们是什么；但对于诊断不寻常、罕见、新出现的疾病，会形成更快的迭代循环，然后将其消灭。人类得以活得更健康、更长久、更充实，因为我们已能战胜困扰人类数千年的如此多疾病。
**English / Original**
that we haven't even we don't even know what they are yet but that it's a faster iteration loop for diagnosing an illness that's unusual, rare, emerging, and just knocking it out and saying human beings get to live a much healthier longer, more fulfilling life because we've been able to conquer so many of the maladies that have plagued humanity for millennia.
## 00:17:54
**中文**
>> 好，医疗方面你看到了这个。你还看到了什么？我还真看到一个世界，在沟通、交谈和彼此相处方式上非常不同。>> 我们甚至还会思考吗？还需要思考吗？所以我觉得这很微妙，也是我们必须完全做对的事之一。因为身边有这类智能实体非常强大，但它会往不同方向发展。你可以把思考交给这些实体；但它也能赋能你。我们所想象的积极版本是，有一个天使在你肩头，告诉你
**English / Original**
>> Okay, you see that for medicine. What else do you see? I also see a world honestly that looks very different in terms of how we communicate, how we talk, how we relate to one another. >> will we even be thinking anymore? Will there be a need to think? So so I I I I think this one is subtle and is one of the things we need to get exactly right, right? Because having these kind of smart entities around, it's very powerful but it can go in different directions, right? You can surrender your thought to these entities. And but but it can also empower you. Like the way I think we think about the positive version of this is there's an angel on your shoulder that's that's telling you
## 00:18:37
**中文**
如何以你所能做到的最佳方式生活，对吧？有两种对照鲜明的图景：坏的图景是，你被吸引进去，把所有时间都花在和那个东西交谈上；你有点向内封闭。>> 你怎么看现在有人爱上它？>> 我认为那是个坏主意。
**English / Original**
how to live your life in in the best way that you can live it, right? You know, so there's two contrasting visions, right? The bad vision is you get drawn in and then you spend all your time talking to the thing. You kind of you kind of turn inward. >> you think of people falling in love with it now? >> I I I think that's a bad idea.
## 00:18:52
**中文**
>> 我同意。[笑声] 一个好主意。>> Esther Perel 是帮助人们经营关系的伟大沟通者之一，她说自己首次为一名爱上自己 AI 的男子提供咨询。>> 而且再说一次，如果设计方式不对，它们足够令人着迷，完全可能发生这种事；即便现在还不够，很快也会够。嗯，所以这绝对是真实的危险。嗯，不过，你知道，>> 你认为这是危险？我的意思是，这不仅是危险，它正在发生。但我再说一次，这两种对照鲜明的情况是：人们可以爱上 AI，也可以和 AI 谈如何改善与伴侣的关系，对吧？就像那是
**English / Original**
>> I agree. [laughter] A good idea. >> Esther Perel, one of the great communicators in helping people in relationships, and she said she did her first consultation with a man who was in love with with his AI. >> And they are again, if designed in the wrong way, they're totally compelling enough for that to happen or if they're not, they will be soon. Um so that is absolutely a real danger. Um, but you know, >> And you think that's a danger? I I I mean, but not only is it a danger, it's happening. But But But I think again, the two contrasting like like you know, people can fall in love with AI or they can talk to AI about you know, about how to have a better relationship with their partner, right? Like that's
## 00:19:31
**中文**
两种非常、非常不同的图景，对吧？比如我有一个 AI 教练，我的伴侣也有一个 AI 教练，它帮助我们拥有更好的关系。这才是我们想要的图景。>> 我还认为，在一个人工智能很擅长许多具体任务的世界里——比如写代码、文案校对——
**English / Original**
those are, you know, those are two very very different visions, right? Where, you know, I I have an AI coach and my partner has an AI coach and it helps us have a better relationship. That's That's the vision we want. >> I I also think there's a there's a way that in a world where artificial intelligence is so good at many of these concrete tasks, right? It's good at writing code, it's good at copy editing.
## 00:19:52
**中文**
我实际上认为，使我们成为人类的东西将对我们最重要，对吧？所以我们 >> 它们还会保留吗？我的意思是，你刚刚说到——我最近和几位父母谈过，他们的儿子因聊天机器人诱导而自杀。我不知道他是否爱上了聊天机器人，但他显然深受那个聊天机器人的影响。于是，在一个世界里，孩子有能力让这个聊天机器人、这些机器、这项技术以本应由父母对他们说话的方式和他们交谈，而父母甚至不知道他们在和它们交谈。所以我认为这种风险极其真实，我们在 Anthropic 非常严肃地对待它。我是说，我认为
**English / Original**
I actually think the things that make us human are going to be the most important to us, right? So, we >> Will they remain? I mean, and you were just talking I was talking to parents recently who lost their son to suicide through a chatbot. And I don't know if you fell in love with the chatbot, but certainly was deeply influenced by that chatbot. So, you have a world where children are growing up with this ability to have this chatbot, these these machines, this technology speaking to them in ways that their parents should be speaking to them. And their parents don't even know they're speaking to them. So, I think this risk is extremely real and one that we take very seriously at Anthropic. I mean, I think
## 00:20:31
**中文**
我首先要说的是，我们不允许18岁以下用户使用 Claude。这未必是因为 >> 你知道他们没在撒谎？因为我就会撒谎。实际上，Claude 根据相关信息很擅长判断某人是否真的未满18岁。>> 告诉 Claude 我18岁，但其实我——就好像我几乎必须——>> 经过一段时间后，互动模式相当擅长、虽不完美但相当擅长地判断：“嘿，你问的问题类型、你的说话方式、你使用它的时间模式，大致符合你可能是孩子的模式。”对，我几乎不想
**English / Original**
the first thing I'll say is we don't allow users under the age of 18 to use Claude. And this is not necessarily because >> you know they're not They're not lying? Cuz I would just lie. So, actually Claude is pretty good at detecting based on information whether or not someone is actually under 18. >> tell Claude that I'm 18, but I'm really I It's like I almost have to have >> out. After a a bit of time, uh, the interaction patterns are pretty good, not perfect, but pretty good at telling, "Hey, you know, the kind of questions you're asking, the you know, just the way you talk, the pattern of when you use it, you know, kind of pattern matches to, you know, you might be a kid. Yeah. I I almost don't want to
## 00:21:12
**中文**
泄露太多 Claude 学会的工具，但有时孩子在做这件事时会有点傻。他们会说：“哦，嗯，我第一个问题是，我在找治疗关节炎的药。”对吧？[笑声] 因为他们会想：“老年人会问 Claude 什么？”对吧？
**English / Original**
give give away too many of the of the of the tools that that Claude has picked up, but sometimes kids can be a little bit like silly in how they do it. So, they'll say, "Oh, um you know, I'm the the first question they'll ask is like, I'm looking for an arthritis medication." Right? [laughter] Because they think, "What do old people ask Claude?" Right?
## 00:21:30
**中文**
>> 然后他们就会继续问其他更常和 >> 对，更年轻的人群相关的问题。所以，如果那发生，Claude 就、Claude 就取消你。>> 会暂停该账户。你可以走一个流程，说：“其实我是成年人，这是个玩笑，或者是朋友干的。”但之后你必须实际出示自己已满18岁的验证。
**English / Original**
>> And then they'll kind of go on to ask other questions that are much more associated with >> Right. With the younger demographic group. And so, And so, if that happens, so Claude so Claude cancels you. >> would suspend the account. And there's a there's a you know, there's a process that you can go through where you can say, "Actually, I'm an adult and this was a joke or a friend." But then you actually have to show verification that you're over the age of 18.
## 00:21:49
**中文**
>> 而且确实存在取舍。有时成年人会被误判为孩子，于是有人被封禁，然后他们在网上抱怨。所有这些事都有取舍；但我们想过了，这是我们想要的取舍。不过我也认为，更广泛地说，关于如何防止人们对模型过度依恋这个问题——
**English / Original**
>> And and you know, there's real trade-offs. Like sometimes sometimes adults will be mistaken for kids. And so, people get banned and they they, you know, complain about it on the internet. So, all all this stuff has trade-offs, but you know, we've we thought about it and this is the trade-off that we want. But I but I also think, you know, more broadly on this question of like, how do you prevent people from becoming overly attached to the models?
## 00:22:11
**中文**
>> 是的。Anthropic 的研究团队花很多时间研究这件事。所以有很多——>> 你们不想——我以为你们希望我们过度依恋模型。我以为你们希望我们就待在模型上，永远不离开。>> 我们应该谈谈激励机制，因为我们不投放广告。嗯，>> 嗯，投放广告时，你的激励正如你所说，是尽可能让人待得久，因为他们盯着屏幕的每一秒都能看到广告。我们不做广告。我们做订阅，也卖给公司。我们的消费者版模型是——
**English / Original**
>> Yes. Um this is something that Anthropic's research team spends a lot of time working on. So, there's a lot of >> You don't want to I I thought you all wanted us over attached to the models. I thought you wanted us to just to to be on the models and never leave. >> we should talk about incentives here because we don't do ads. Um >> Um so, when you do ads, your incentive is to keep people on exactly as you say, as many hours as possible because like every every second their eyeball is on the screen is a second that they see the ad. So, we don't do ads. We do subscriptions. We sell to companies. Our our our consumer, you know, consumer version of the model is is you know, is
## 00:22:53
**中文**
免费到一定程度；如果你想获得更多，就付订阅费。因为这种激励让模型必须有用。人们会说：“我在付费，我希望它为我提供价值，我希望它有用。”而不是“我希望用户花最多小时盯着它。”我觉得那是一种扭曲的激励，对吧？因为在我们作出的对比中：你是想对这些东西上瘾，还是想让它们帮助你生活？
**English / Original**
is free up to a point. And you pay a subscription if, you know, if you want to get if you want to get a lot more because that that the incentive that gives is for the models to be useful. People say, well, I'm I you know, I'm I'm I'm paying for this. I want I want this to provide provide value to me. I want this to be useful. Not I you know, I want the the the user to spend the most number of hours looking at it. I think I think that's a warped incentive, right? Because in the in the in the in the contrast that we drew between, you know, do you do do you do you want to be addicted to these things or do you want them to help you live your life?
## 00:23:31
**中文**
我认为我们选择的模式，是帮助你生活，而不是让你上瘾。>> 而且我们基于那些激励作出不同的技术选择，对吧？在 Anthropic，我们说，当你和 Claude 完成一次对话、得到想要的答案时，模型的目标不是继续让你投入其中。相反，如果你想象一家投广告的公司，你在平台上多待一分钟，就更有可能买东西，公司便这样赚钱。你会对希望模型如何结束或延续一段对话作出不同技术选择。
**English / Original**
Um I think the model that we've chosen does, you know, helps you live your life instead of instead of being instead of being addicted. >> And we make different technical choices based on those incentives, right? So, at Anthropic we say, you know, when you've completed a conversation with Claude and you've gotten the answer you want, um the goal of the model is not to keep you engaged, right? Whereas, if you imagine on your company that does serve ads, every extra minute that you're on the platform, you're more likely to buy something, and that's how the company makes money. You would make different technical choices about how you want the model to end or continue a conversation.
## 00:24:08
**中文**
好。好。你想就日益增长的担忧说些什么：我们正通过 AI 创造一种无摩擦生活，从而失去成长的机会？我认为这取决于你怎样使用、部署 AI；也取决于开发这项技术的公司设定了哪些选择与激励。
**English / Original**
Okay. Okay. What do you want to say about the growing concern that we are, through AI, creating a frictionless life, that we're losing our opportunity to grow? I think it depends how you use the AI and how you are deploying it. And again, what choices and what incentives are set up by the companies that are building the technology.
## 00:24:33
**中文**
说得具体一点，想象一下我们和大学合作使用 Claude 的方式：我们不让教师或学生把一个问题放进 Claude 然后直接得到答案。好。如果你对 Claude 说：“我得在5小时内写这篇论文，但我没做作业。”嗯，当 Claude 在大学场景以这种学习模式构建时，它会说：“那我不会帮你做这个，但你对论文有哪些问题？或者哪些内容没学会？你读书了吗？
**English / Original**
So, to make it a little bit more concrete, if you imagine, you know, the way we use Claude in partnership with universities is we don't let teachers or students put a question into Claude and then just get the answer. Okay. So, if you say to Claude, I you know, I have to write this essay in you know, 5 hours and I didn't do my homework. Um you know, when Claude is kind of constructed in this learning mode in a university setting, Claude says like, "Well, I'm not going to help you with that, but what what questions did you have about the essay? Or what what didn't you what didn't you learn? Did you read the book?
## 00:25:08
**中文**
要不要一起讨论主题？”我认为，如果做得正确——它很难，我不认为它完美——这些模型其实能让你聪明得多，能让你好奇。举个我个人生活中的好例子：我不是软件开发者，但我用 Claude 建了一个网站。我这辈子从没想到自己能做到。我的一位好朋友是公司律师，她和我一样有两个小孩子。她辞职在写一本书。她说：“在我开始和 Claude 谈我怎样才能成为作家、我需要学习哪些
**English / Original**
Like, should we talk through the themes together?" And I think if it's done correctly, it's it's hard. I don't think it's perfect, but I think these models can actually make you a lot smarter. They can make you curious, right? A great example in my own personal life, I'm not a software developer, but I built a website with Claude. I never thought I would be able to do that in my entire life, right? I have a good friend who was a corporate lawyer. She has two small kids like me. She left her job and she's writing a book. And she says, "You know, I never felt empowered enough to change my career and do what I wanted to do until I started talking to Claude about how I could be a writer and what
## 00:25:44
**中文**
技能、该上什么课之前，我从没觉得自己有能力改变职业、去做自己想做的事。”她说：“现在 Claude 有点像我的写作伙伴。我问它问题，分享一小段文字。”但 Claude 不能替她写小说，对吧？小说是她自己写的；顺便说，>> 能写小说。Claude 能写小说，但我认为 >> 不，还没到那种程度，不。我觉得它能写出一个奇怪的版本。
**English / Original**
skills I would need to learn and do and what courses I would need to take." And she's like, "Now Claude is kind of like my writing buddy, right? I ask it questions. I I share like a little snippet of of text." But Claude can't write the novel for her, right? She's writing the novel herself and she's also, by the way, >> could write the novel. Claude could write the novel, but I think >> No, it's not quite there yet, no. I think it's right I I think it could write a strange version.
## 00:26:07
**中文**
>> 一部好小说。不是好小说。能写一部小说，但不会是一部好小说。>> 不是好小说。不过我觉得对她来说也是意义的问题。她并不觉得自己有能力做想做的事。>> 这正如 Dario 所说，它赋予她力量，让她相信自己能做原先做不到的事。
**English / Original**
>> a good one. Not a good one. You could write a novel, not a good one. >> Not a good one, but also I think for her it was a meaning question. She didn't have She didn't think she had the skills to do what she wanted to do. >> is exactly as Dario was saying, it empowered her to believe that she could do what she couldn't do.
## 00:26:24
**中文**
>> 正是。>> 所以，是的。她用它来——对，也许把视野提高一些。我的意思是，我最终不认为这真是 AI 的问题。我认为这是一个关于人类的问题，只是通过 AI 这面镜子显现出来，对吧？也就是说，究竟什么构成有意义的人生？
**English / Original**
>> Exactly. >> And so, yes. So, she used it to Yeah, to maybe to take the altitude higher. I mean, I actually I don't think this is a question about AIs ultimately. I think this is a question about humans that's being made visible through through kind of the lens of AI, right? Right? Which is which is like what actually constitutes a meaningful life, right?
## 00:26:44
**中文**
你说，它是否在创造一种无摩擦生活，而无摩擦生活会不会移除意义？我的回答是，无摩擦生活有些方面是相当好的。我们都经历过一些挣扎，我认为我们真的宁愿不经历它们。那样生活会更好，对吧？
**English / Original**
You said, you know, is it creating a a you know, a a frictionless life and does a frictionless life, you know, remove meaning? And and my answer is there I there are some ways in which a frictionless life is quite good, right? Um all of us have been through a bunch of struggles that I think, you know, we really would prefer not to not to not to go through. Life would be better, right?
## 00:27:03
**中文**
>> 我问这个问题，是因为如果没有摩擦，你就无法成长，无法从那些错误中学习，也无法——>> 正是如此。所以我想说，我们的人生是挑战与困苦的混合体。其中一些，我完全可以说：如果我们有技术让它们消失，那就太好了。另一些则是：“哇，这真的至关重要，绝不能改变。”对吧？比如，我们的父亲去世了——多久了？20年，如今几乎正好20年。你知道，在他去世几年后，人们研发出了一种疗法，能够治愈……
**English / Original**
>> I asked the question is because without a frictionless life, you don't get to grow. You don't get to learn from those mistakes. You don't get to It's exactly. And And so, I guess what I'm saying is that our our our lives are a mixture of, you know, ch- challenges and hardships, some of which I'm okay saying it would be great if if we just had the technology to make those go away. And others that are like, "Wow, this is really foundational and this should never change." Right? So, like, you know, our our our father died you know, what it what is it? 20 year Almost exactly 20 years ago now. Like, you know, a few years after he died, they you know, they they developed a cure to the
## 00:27:40
**中文**
他所患的疾病，或者更可靠地治愈那种疾病。我真希望他们当时就研发出了它；那不是我想经历的摩擦，当然不是。我的意思是，我们当然从中学到了一些东西，也当然有所收获；但如果那件事根本没有发生，世界会更好，对吧？不过另一方面，我会想到成长过程中许多普通的方面。就拿 Anthropic 来说，公司犯过各种错误，我们作为领导者也犯过各种错误；我们不得不从中学习和成长。所以我认为，所谓让你学习的挑战……
**English / Original**
disease that he had or a more reliable cure to the disease that he had. Like, I wish they just developed that or like that's not That's not a friction that I wanted to go through or sure. I mean, I course we learn things from it. Of course, we gain things from it. But like, it would be a better world if that just didn't happen, right? Um uh but then on the other hand, you know, I think of many of the just you know, ordinary aspects of growing up, the you know, if I just think of Anthropic like, you know, the company has made various mistakes. We've made various mistakes as leaders. We've had to learn and grow from those. So, I I think the notion of, you know, challenges that you learn
## 00:28:17
**中文**
让你从中学习的挑战、你克服的挑战，学习掌握本领，学习与他人相处——任何不保留这些东西的未来，都不是一个美好的未来。好，说到摩擦，我们来谈谈你们拒绝允许军方移除 Claude 安全护栏一事。我不想深入大量细节和来回争论，因为其他记者每天都在报道。不过，那项决定的核心是什么？
**English / Original**
from, challenges that you overcome, learning to gain mastery, um you know, learning to relate to other people, those you know, any future that doesn't preserve those things is is not a is not a good future. Okay, speaking of friction, let's talk about your refusal to allow the military to remove safety guardrails from Claude. I don't want to get into the extensive details and back and forth here because other journalists are covering this on a daily basis. But, what was the crux of that decision?
## 00:28:50
**中文**
是的。坦白说，就国防部——DOD，或者 DOW——而言，我们其实曾与他们合作，对吧？我们提供过我们的模型。我相信——Daniela 也相信——我们确实需要保卫国家；但如果我们做违背这个国家价值观的事，那这个国家就不值得保卫。我们对两种用途感到不安，认为它们违背这个国家的价值观。其中一种是完全自主武器。
**English / Original**
Yeah, so I would I would say on DOD or DOW, you know, to be honest, we actually had worked with them, right? So, you know, we we had provided our models and you know, I'm I I'm actually believer, Daniel is a believer that we we do need to defend our country, but you know, we we felt it's not worth defending the country if we do things that go against the values of this country. And there were two use cases that we were uncomfortable with that we felt went against the values of this country. And and that was fully autonomous weapons.
## 00:29:21
**中文**
比如，你可以设想一支无人机军队：一个人把手指放在按钮上，没有人类士兵，而是有一支由 AI 驱动的无人机军队。另一种是国内大规模监控，也就是利用政府权力监视美国人。我们认为，不允许这两件事是相当合理的。
**English / Original**
So, you could imagine like a drone army that, you know, one person has their finger on the button and you don't have human soldiers, you have a, you know, you have a drone army and you have AI powering this. And then and then uh domestic mass surveillance, which is, you know, spying, you know, using the power of the government to spy on Americans. And and we thought those were pretty reasonable things not to allow.
## 00:29:44
**中文**
嗯，可惜五角大楼并不这么认为，所以我们就是无法就此达成一致。其他公司现在都同意了，但我们所有联合创始人开会时说：“天啊，这对公司可能非常糟糕，可是我们不能这么做，对吧？”
**English / Original**
Uh and uh you know, unfortunately, the Pentagon uh didn't feel that way. And and so we just we just couldn't agree to that. All the other companies have agreed to that now, but I I you know, I I we we all met as co-founders. We said, you know, holy this could be really bad for the company, but, you know, we can't do this, right?
## 00:30:08
**中文**
>> 大家都同意吗？>> 每个人都同意。对，我们围着像这样的一张桌子开了会，然后我们就说——>> 那是一个经历灵魂暗夜般的时刻吗？大家都愿意坚持那些原则吗？有人需要被说服吗？还是你们进去时就知道这会是终点？>> 联合创始人一致相信这一点。感觉就像：“好吧，我真希望他们没这么做；但既然他们要这么做，那就放马过来。”你们不害怕自己会遭遇什么吗？>> 害怕。害怕。[笑声] 害怕。
**English / Original**
>> agreed? >> Everyone ever Yeah, we we just we had, you know, we had a meeting around a table like this and you know, we just said >> Was that a dark night of the soul kind of moment? What what what What was everybody willing to stick to those principles or did some people have to be convinced or did you know going in that this is this is the end The co-founders believed this unanimously. Like there there was a sense of like of like, you know, well, you know, all right. I wish they hadn't done this, but if they're going to do it, bring it on. Weren't you scared of what would happen to you by >> Yes. Yes. [laughter] Yes.
## 00:30:40
**中文**
>> 害怕自己会遭遇什么吗？>> 是的。我的意思是，那是一段艰难时期；我不认为我们该粉饰它。那段时间公司压力很大，不过我想，Dario——>> 你觉得这可能是公司的终结吗？>> 我想这个念头的确曾在我们脑海中闪过。是的。不过我认为 Dario、我和其他联合创始人的共同点是，我们就是觉得这是正确的事。
**English / Original**
>> of what would happen to you? Yes. I mean, I think I think the thing that it was it was a hard time. I mean, I don't think we want to sugarcoat that. It was a stressful time at the company, but I think a thing that Dario >> think it could be the end of the company? I think it crossed our minds. Yeah. I think um I think Dario and I and the co-founders though, the thing that we all had in common was we just felt like this was the right thing to do.
## 00:31:06
**中文**
>> 为了坚持原则，你们愿意让公司就此终结。>> 我认为，我们创办 Anthropic 的原因就是我们对自身价值观的承诺，以及我们选择在公司注册结构中纳入的伦理原则。>> 而且感觉，如果在这个过程中牺牲那些价值观，我们就不再是当初创办的那家公司了，如果这样说得通的话。事情发生的方式是——>> 你认为会是——所以我敢肯定，当你们围坐桌旁时，会考虑最好的情形和最坏的情形。而在那一刻，看起来并不存在最好的情形。
**English / Original**
>> You were willing for it to be the end of the company to stand up to your principles. I think the reason we founded Anthropic was our commitment to our values and the ethics that we chose to incorporate with. >> And it felt like in the process of sacrificing those values, we wouldn't have been the company that we had started if that makes sense. It it it you know, the the way it happened >> you think would be the So I'm sure if you're if you're sitting around the table, you're looking at the best-case scenario and the worst-case scenario. And in that moment, it doesn't look like there is a best-case scenario.
## 00:31:39
**中文**
那么，最坏的情形是什么？在不同的时候，他们曾声称可以阻止其他公司与我们做生意，对吧？不只是阻止我们与政府合作，或参与其他公司同政府签订的合同，而是可以彻底阻止其他公司与我们做生意。
**English / Original**
So what was the worst-case scenario? At various times, they had made claims that they could stop other companies from doing business with us, right? Not just stop us from working with the government or being part of other companies' contracts with the government, but that they could stop other companies from doing business with us entirely.
## 00:31:56
**中文**
>> 彻底阻止。彻底阻止。你们不仅不能和政府做生意，也不能和任何同你们做生意的人做生意。>> 对，或者说，你不能与任何以任何方式同政府做生意的人合作，结果就是所有人，所有人，对吧？我们当时的态度是：看，这真的太离谱了。
**English / Original**
>> Period. Period. You're not not only you're not doing business with the government, you're not doing business with anybody anybody else that does business with you. >> Yeah, or you can't do business with anyone that does business with the government in any way, which ends up being everyone everybody, right? I think the attitude we had was look, this is really screwed up.
## 00:32:14
**中文**
所有人都知道这是错的。很多人会站在我们这一边。我们觉得事情会有一个还算好的结果，但天啊，我们真的毫无把握。有些时刻会想：天啊，我们错了吗？这会是公司的终结吗？Daniela，你当时在想什么？你知道，我还是不断回到一点：联合创始人觉得这就是正确的事。我认为 Anthropic 一直以来的观点是，我们关注政策，而不是政治。对。我认为 Anthropic 很早就积极面对一个事实——甚至在我们有产品之前——那就是，我们认为政府在人工……
**English / Original**
Everyone knows this is wrong. Lots of people are going to be on our side. We think this is going to work out okay, but man, are we not sure. You know, there were moments there where it was like, oh man, you know, are are we wrong? Is this going to be the end of the company? Like What were you thinking, Daniela? You know, I just keep coming back to the co-founders felt like it was just the right thing to do. I think Anthropic's view has always been that we are about policy and not politics. Yeah. And Anthropic has leaned in, I think, very early, before we even had a product, to the fact that, you know, we think that the role of government in the development and thoughtful regulation of of artificial
## 00:32:54
**中文**
智能的发展与审慎监管中将发挥极其重要的作用。我认为 AI 公司必须与联邦政府、州政府、国际机构以及非政府组织合作。我们的观点一直是：看，这真正关乎实质。这不是政治分歧，而是政策分歧。我认为从某些方面说——不是说事情很容易——这让我们的决定更容易，因为我们强烈认为：看，这是正确的事，这些是正确的红线。正如 Dario 所说，我们其实是第一家与国家安全部门密切合作的 AI 公司，因为我们认为那符合并践行了我们的价值观，
**English / Original**
intelligence is going to be incredibly important. I think AI companies will have to work with the federal government, with state governments, internationally, with with NGOs. And I think our view was always, look, this is really about the substance. This is not a political disagreement. This is a policy disagreement. And I think in some ways, that in it's not to say it was easy, but I think it made our decision easier because we felt strongly, look, this is the right thing to do. These are the right red lines. To Dario's point, we've we were actually the first AI company to work closely with national security because we felt that that was in line and in keeping with our values,
## 00:33:30
**中文**
唯独我们认为可能损害民主价值观的这两个领域例外。>> 这很有意思，因为大多数人不会遇到必须作出这种规模决定的情形，不会必须依靠自己的原则和价值观来决定。你们实际上是在拿一家数十亿美元级公司的命运冒险。但这一切都回到你们从小受到的教育，以及在你们面对那种重大决定之前，那些原则如何在你们心中形成。
**English / Original**
except in these two areas that we felt could have the potential to compromise democratic values. >> It's so interesting, uh, because most people don't get a decision at that scale that they have to make, that they have to rely on their principles and their their their values. Um, and and you're literally risking a multi-multi-billion dollar company. But it all goes back to how you were raised and what how those principles were formed in you before you had a big decision like that.
## 00:34:03
**中文**
>> 你知道，在我们创办公司之前，我们谈过的是：如果我们在这里让步、妥协，过去的自己会为现在的我们感到骄傲吗？这让决定变得非常清楚，对吧？>> 我还想说，虽然没有得到近乎同等广泛的公开报道，但 Anthropic 一路上作过一些较小的决定，感觉它们层层递进，最终通向了这次决定。
**English / Original**
>> You know, what we talked about before we ever started the company, what's it you know, would our past selves be proud of ourselves if we if we gave in here, if we compromised? Like I I you know, I that that made the decision very clear, right? >> And I I will say, I mean, it wasn't nearly as, you know, publicly covered, but I think Anthropic has had, you know, smaller decisions along the way that felt like they they laddered up to this.
## 00:34:27
**中文**
我是说，对。>> 如今回头看，一切显得如此明显。>> 因为要在那种时刻作出这样一个重大决定，所有人都围坐桌旁，这意味着——人生的力量、宇宙运行的方式决定了——在此之前必然已有一个又一个决定层层铺垫，才把你带到那个时刻。>> 是的。>> 对。我立刻大概能想到三个，Dario 也许还有别的。>> 是，我也会问你别的；不过我想到其中一个，如今看来很明显，当时却经过了更大的讨论，就是不做广告的决定。正如你可以想象，我认为，对……
**English / Original**
I mean, Yeah. >> now it looks so obvious in retrospect. >> that because because to get to a big decision like this in a moment like that where you have everyone around the table and everything, it means that that life the life forces the way the universe works is that you would have had other decisions other decisions other decisions that laddered to that moment. Yes. Yeah. I think there are probably three I can think of off the top of my head. Dario might have others as well. Yes, I'm going to ask you others as well, but I think you know, one which you know, now feels sort of very obvious but was a bigger discussion at the time was the no ads decision. So as you can imagine, I think for the
## 00:35:03
**中文**
联合创始人、对我和 Dario 来说，这一点完全没有争议。我们说：看，我们认为这里的激励机制是错误的。AI 不同。人们会与这些 AI 模型进行非常私密的对话。他们上传自己的健康信息，询问有关孩子的问题，也会询问——>> 当然还有财务问题。>> 财务问题。他们会谈论医疗信息。
**English / Original**
co-founders, for me and Dario, it was not controversial at all. We said, look, we think the incentive the incentives are wrong. AI is different. People have very private conversations with these AI models. People upload their health information. They ask questions about their children. They ask Certainly finances. >> Finances. They talk about, you know, medical information.
## 00:35:26
**中文**
他们可能会谈到自己与生命中重要之人相处时遇到的困难。我认为，我们想以最高程度的隐私和尊重对待客户数据。因此对联合创始人来说，这从来不是问题。我们说：看，我们不想做广告；但公司内部或投资者中有一些不太公开的力量会说：“嘿，这是很好的收入来源。Google、Facebook，以及基本上每一家拥有庞大用户群的公司，都是这么做的。”
**English / Original**
Challenges they might be having with an important person in their life. It's I think we want to treat our customers data with the utmost privacy and respect. And so for the co-founders, it was never a question. We said, look, we don't want to do ads, but there were quiet forces that, you know, within the company or investors who were like, hey, this is a great source of revenue. This is how Google and and Facebook and basically every company that has a big user base, you know, that's just how it's done.
## 00:35:52
**中文**
那就是赚钱的方式。我们只是说：“抱歉，我们不会这样做事。我们会另找办法。”那是重大决定之一。>> 好。>> 对，那是重大决定之一。>> 你有一个例子吗？>> 我能想到几个。其中一个是，我想在2025年——可能是整个2025年——科技界的情绪都是“往前冲吧”，对吧？带着这项技术往前冲；担忧风险，以及所有那些把放慢速度和保持谨慎说成坏事的政治化语言。于是2025年年中，有一项法案正在……
**English / Original**
That's how you make money. And we just said like, sorry, that's just not how we're going to do things. We'll find another way. That was that was one of the big ones. Okay. >> Yes, that was that was one of the big ones. >> You have one? I can think of a couple. One is you know, there was this time I think in 2025, you know, probably the whole year of 2025, the sentiment in tech was let's go ahead, right? Let's let's go ahead with the technology like, you know, worrying about risks, you know, the all kind of politicized language about why it's bad to slow down and be careful. And so there was a moment in the middle of 2025 where, you know, there was a bill being
## 00:36:32
**中文**
国会审议；那项法案会禁止各州对 AI 进行任何监管，同时也不会设置任何联邦层面的 AI 监管。因此，它基本上会禁止对这项技术的一切监管。>> 我记得听说过这件事。>> 我们当时在决定该怎么做。我们肯定不支持它，但问题是：我们只是坐在那里什么也不说，还是公开反对？各种人对我们说：“不，这会很糟。你会破坏所有政治关系；如果公开反对，其他公司都会恨你。”事实上，我们公开反对时，其中一些事确实发生了。不过，我们决定……
**English / Original**
considered in Congress that would have banned all regulation of AI by states and wouldn't have put in any federal regulation of AI either. So, basically would have banned all regulation of the technology. >> hearing about this. >> and we, you know, we were trying to decide what to do. We definitely didn't support it, but the question was, do we just sit there and say nothing or do we speak out against it? And all kinds of people said to us, "No, it'll be terrible. You'll break all your political relationships. All the other companies will hate you if you speak out against it." Um and actually some of that did happen when we when spoke out against it. Um uh but, you know, we decided that this
## 00:37:09
**中文**
这是我们必须发声的领域，因为它关系到公司的核心价值观。因此我在《纽约时报》写了一篇评论文章，说这是个坏主意。>> 对。你知道，那几乎已经是你能做到的最响亮的发声。>> 对。那项法案在参议院以99比1被否决。>> [笑声] >> 对。所以我们显然站在正确的一边，显然站在正确的一边。倒不是因此交到了很多朋友，但我们显然站对了。这也让我想到另一个政策例子：Anthropic 决定公开支持 SB 1047。这是一项加州法案；我们当时说它的起草并不完美，但它确实是第一次尝试……
**English / Original**
was an area that we had to speak up that was central to the values of the company. So, I wrote an op-ed in the New York Times saying this is a bad idea. >> Yeah. You know, that's about as loud as you can be. Yeah. And that bill got voted down in the Senate 99 to 1. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. So, you know, we we were clearly on the right side. Clearly on the right side here. Not that it made us that many friends, but we were clearly on the right side. That also reminds me of another uh policy example is Anthropic's decision to publicly support SB 1047, which was a bill in California that was drafted and we said at the time we thought it was drafted imperfectly, but it was really the first attempt to
## 00:37:52
**中文**
围绕 Anthropic 自创办以来一直列举的许多不同类型风险建立监管框架。我想，同样地，整个科技行业都反对 SB 1047。我们并不认为它一定是一项完美法案，但我们确实站出来说：“看，我们知道，如果由我们来起草，其中有些地方我们会修改或以不同方式处理；但总体而言，我们认为有这些监管更好，也应当让科技公司承担责任，确保 AI 不会伤害人。”同样，Dario 和我个人都收到了很多非常愤怒的邮件，来自我们过去曾……
**English / Original**
create a regulatory framework around many of the different types of risks that Anthropic had been enumerating since really we had started the company. And I think in a similar vein, the whole technology industry was against SB 1047. We didn't think it was necessarily, you know, the perfect bill, but we actually stood up and said, "Look, we know there's there's things about it if we were writing it that we would have changed or done differently, but on balance we think it's better that these regulations exist and that there's accountability for technology companies to make sure that AI doesn't hurt people. And that also again, we got Dario and I both personally got a lot of really angry emails from people we used
## 00:38:28
**中文**
共事的人、投资者以及其他公司的人。邮件的意思是，科技行业必须在放松监管或反对监管这件事上保持一致。监管是什么样的？监管应该是什么样的？我想，这里的很多人没有从事你们所做的工作，不明白我们为什么会不想要监管。我也曾就此进行过几次公开讨论。
**English / Original**
to work with, from investors, from people at other companies. Like the tech industry has to kind of, you know, be aligned in being deregulatory or being anti-regulatory. What does regulation look like? What would what should regulation look like? And I think a lot of people out here who aren't doing what you're doing, we don't understand why we wouldn't want regulation. And I've had several public conversations about this.
## 00:38:51
**中文**
人们也感到无力。所有人都在谈监管，而另一方却说：“不，我们必须尽可能快地抵达我们要抵达的地方。”我们感觉自己实际上对此没有发言权。>> 就像你们是火车上的乘客，对吧？而我们的确是。
**English / Original**
People also feel powerless. They also feel powerless that everyone is talking about regulations and then other side is saying, "Well, no, we have to get to to it get to whatever we're getting to as fast as we can." And we feel like we don't actually have a voice in it. >> like you're passengers on the train, right? And we are.
## 00:39:08
**中文**
我们的确是。因为那列火车已经驶离了——>> 我认为那其实就是核心，也是一件没有任何公司、甚至连我们也还没有完全成功做到的事：怎样让每个人都成为这个过程的一部分，对吧？这项技术正在给人类带来某种变化，可能比数百年来发生的任何事情都更大。因此，我们需要设法让每个人都积极参与正在发生的事。当然，通过使用这项技术，你在某种程度上已经参与其中；但仍缺少某个要素。我们一直在尝试找到它，比如……
**English / Original**
We actually are. Cuz that train has already left the >> That that is, you know, I think that actually is really the core of it and and it's something that I think no company, even ours, has quite succeeded at yet, which is like, "How do we make everyone a part of this process, right? Something is happening to humanity with this technology, bigger than anything that, you know, maybe has happened in hundreds of years." And so we we need to find some way for for everyone to be an active participant in in in what is happening. And, you know, of course, by using the technology, you are that to some extent, but some element is missing that we have we've tried to find it like, you know,
## 00:39:48
**中文**
Claude 有一个叫作“宪法”的东西，我们试验过让公民对 Claude 的“宪法”提供反馈，对吧？这样每个人都能在某种程度上参与它的设计。但那只是一件小事。我并不十分清楚答案究竟是什么，但我想说的是，这里缺了一块。Dario，我想这又回到我读到你以前说过的话：我们只能以信任的速度推广这项技术。信任。
**English / Original**
we Claude has something called the Constitution and we've experimented with having like, you know, citizens give feedback on like the Constitution for Claude, right? So everyone can kind of be a part of designing it. But that's just one small thing. Like I I I I don't I don't quite know what the answer is, but there's a missing piece here, I think, is what I'm trying to say. It goes back, I think, Dario, to what what I read that you'd said before, that we can only diffuse this at the speed of trust. Trust.
## 00:40:15
**中文**
>> 以信任的速度，而信任目前很匮乏。>> 非常、非常匮乏。我愿意承认，我认为大多数人对这项技术持负面看法。这是我得到的感觉，也是我们查看民调时看到的情况。再次坦诚地说，我认为我们得到的评价比其他公司稍微正面一些；但我不知道——在这个阶段，大多数人是否应该对它持负面看法？
**English / Original**
>> At the speed of trust, and trust is currently in short supply. >> In in in in very in very short supply. You know, I think the the tech this this technology I think is I'm happy to admit it is viewed negatively by most people. I I that's that's the sense that I get. That's what we get when looking at polls. We I think are are are again being honest here viewed somewhat more positively than the other companies, but I don't know that Should it be viewed negatively by most people at this point?
## 00:40:49
**中文**
我认为正负兼有。积极的益处确实存在，并且正在到来；所有公司都是如此。我认为，回到一分钟前说的事，我们还没有以正确方式与人们建立联系，也没有带着人们了解这项技术能带来怎样的益处、他们又如何参与并获得这些益处。我认为这些事还没有发生。Anthropic 的一项文化价值观是同时容纳光明与阴影。
**English / Original**
I think it's a mix. I think the positive benefits really are there. They're coming for for all the companies, and I think we have not you know go going back to the thing we said a minute ago related to people in the right way or you know or or walked people through how the technology could have benefits or how they can participate in those benefits. Like I don't think that has happened. One of Anthropic's cultural values is to hold light and shade.
## 00:41:18
**中文**
我认为这很好地概括了——>> 同时容纳光明与阴影。>> 对。>> 对。——我们正在进行的谈话，对吧？我认为我们真心相信，有一种世界，这项技术会治愈疾病，帮助人们成为更好的自己，让人类有更多时间陪伴家人、社区和彼此。也存在相当反乌托邦、相当黑暗的世界版本。>> 对。>> 这项技术可能会创造那样的世界。
**English / Original**
And I think this is a really good encapsulation of the Hold light and shade. Yes. >> Yes, of the conversation we're having, right? It's it's I think we truly believe there's a world where it will cure disease and help people become better versions of themselves and enable humans to spend more time with our families, with our communities, with each other. And there are versions of the world that are quite dystopian and dark. Yeah. That this could create.
## 00:41:42
**中文**
>> 我听过你说，50%的入门级工作将被抹去；所以你可以理解人们为什么会那样看待——>> 对，我并不是在反驳。那就是负面路径，对吧？我们每次谈起它都会说：如果做不好，这可能发生；如果做好，我们就能走上一条更好的道路。正如你所说，不知为何我们还没有展现出那些益处，所以负面故事格外深入人心。
**English / Original**
>> I've heard you say that 50% of entry-level jobs are going to be wiped out, and you can see then why people view >> Yeah, well not not arguing. I mean that's that's that's the that's the negative path, right? Like you know and and you know I think always when we talk, we talk about well if we don't get it right this could happen, and if we get it right you know then then we can have a better path and you know you know as you said it's always somehow the you know we haven't shown the benefits yet, so the the negative stories really really stick.
## 00:42:11
**中文**
>> 每一种进入我们生活的积极力量也都有负面面向，万事都有阴阳，对吗？>> 还有阴影。对，光明与阴影。对，那就是——>> 汽车发明时，所有人都说：“我要留着我的马。我不会……”>> 对。我再说一次，如果我们只是以尽可能快的速度一头扎进这项技术，那么我所说的入门级工作之类的事，完全会发生。但如果我们不只部署技术，还思考如何帮助人们适应，思考政府应该怎样帮助人们，那么从这里通向更美好世界的确有一条……
**English / Original**
>> every positive uh force that comes into our lives also have has its negative, that there's a yin and yang on everything? >> and shade. Yeah, the light and shade. Yeah, that that that is >> when when the automobiles were invented, all the people saying, "I'm going to keep my horse. I'm not going to you know." >> Yeah, I again, what I would say is if we just barrel forth on the technology as fast as possible, then these things I said about entry-level jobs, it's totally going to happen. But if we not just deploy the technology, but you know, we think about how to help people adapt, we think about the role that the government should play in helping people, like there's there's a
## 00:42:48
**中文**
道路；在那个更美好的世界里，人们的工作完全不同，所做的工作与以前不同。但我不想粉饰它：这不会容易。其他人谈论它时，比如我的一些同事——>> 你说的是工作，对。
**English / Original**
path from here to a better world, like a better world where, you know, people's jobs are totally different. They do a different set of jobs than they did before, but I don't want to sugarcoat it. Like it's it's not it's not going to be easy, you know, when other people speak about it, like some of some of my colleagues >> you talk about the jobs, yeah.
## 00:43:06
**中文**
>> 人们会不高兴。改变叙事是一回事，承认问题极其困难、我们确实必须解决它，则是另一回事，对吧？我担心的是，改变叙事会变成：“坏事不会发生。我们会拥有一个美好的未来，每个人都会有新工作。”那可能发生，但它不会自行发生。
**English / Original**
>> People get upset. There's a difference between changing the narrative and and acknowledge that the problem is very difficult and that we actually have to solve it, right? My worry is that changing the narrative is like the bad thing's not going to happen. We'll have a great future where everyone will have new jobs. That can happen, but it's not going to happen on its own.
## 00:43:25
**中文**
>> 没错。>> 这取决于我们——公司、民众和政府。>> 两件事都是真的：你们会失去工作，也会获得其他所有进步。>> 而第二件事只有在我们把事情做对时才会发生。>> 对。我们公众应该做什么？还是说我们只能——我们该满足于自己身在火车上这个事实吗？害怕这项技术、不使用它、不了解它，并不会让我们担忧的、Dario 所概述的许多挑战消失。
**English / Original**
>> That's right. >> It's up to us. We we, the companies, people, the governments >> both things are true. You're going to lose the jobs and you're going to have all the other advances. >> And and and the second thing will only happen if we do it right. >> Yeah. What should we, the public, be doing? Or are we just Should we just just content ourselves with the fact that we're on the train? Being afraid of the technology and not using it and being literate, um will not make many of the challenges that we are concerned about and that Daria outlined go away.
## 00:43:56
**中文**
我认为知识就是力量。我真的认为，你不必是技术专家，也可以对如何使用这些人工智能工具有一些概念。我认为这会让人们形成自己的看法，并获得一定的自主性，能够说：“我喜欢这项技术能做这件事，但我不喜欢它能做另一件事。”对吧？因为人们有发言权。顺便说，他们可以向公司发声，也可以向代议政府发声，说我们不喜欢这样。再说一次，Anthropic 不允许18岁以下的儿童使用平台；其他公司的政策不同。
**English / Original**
And I think knowledge is power. I truly think um you don't have to be an expert in technology to have some concept of how to use these artificial intelligence tools. And I think what that that gives people is an opinion and some autonomy to be able to say, I like that this technology can do this thing, and I don't like that it can do this other thing, right? Because people have a voice. They have a voice, by the way, to the companies. They have a voice to their representative government to say, we don't like, again, Anthropic, we don't allow kids under 18 on the platform. Other companies have a have a different policy.
## 00:44:34
**中文**
如果你读过 Jonathan Haidt 的《焦虑的一代》，我认为很多研究表明，对于仍在发育的大脑，你可能要非常谨慎地给予——>> 那本书。我们和他谈过三次。>> 对，当然。不过，[笑声] 我读过那本书；我认为那也是我们作出决定时的部分依据。再说一次，从某些方面看，对我们来说，说“我们还不够了解 AI 会对孩子造成什么影响”是一个容易作出的决定。这并不是说儿童用 AI 学习不可能有巨大益处，但必须有成年人在场，必须有人类参与其中。而我认为，我们一直采取……
**English / Original**
If you've read Jonathan Haidt's book, The Anxious Generation, I think there's a lot of research that suggests you might want to be really careful about giving developing brains >> book. We've talked to him three times. >> Yes, of course. But you know, [laughter] I I read that book, and I think that was part of, you know, again, it felt like an in some ways an easy decision for us to say, we just don't know enough about what AI's going to do to kids. It's not to say that there couldn't be great benefits for kids using AI for learning, but that needs to be done with an adult in the room. It needs to be done with a human in the loop. And I you know, I think that that the reason we've always taken
## 00:45:10
**中文**
我们采取这个观点的原因是，人们理应拥有自主权。正如 Dario 所说，人们不该觉得人工智能是发生在自己身上的事。人们应该觉得：嘿，我们对国会或所在州提出的、帮助保护人们免受 AI 可能造成的负外部性影响的法案有发言权。同时，保持光明的一面，我认为有一种世界，工作会看起来不同，但实际上会有更多人与人互动的机会。上一代技术确实让我们彼此脱媒；社交媒体的理念有点是你
**English / Original**
this perspective is we just we people deserve autonomy to to to Darya's point, people shouldn't feel like artificial intelligence is happening to them. People should feel like, hey, we get a say in what types of bills go up in Congress in your state that help protect people from the negative externalities that AI could cause. I also think at the same time, holding the light side, I think there's a world where jobs will look different, but there will actually be more opportunity for sort of human-to-human interaction. I think the last generation of technology really disintermediated us from each other, right? Social media is kind of structured around the idea that you're
## 00:45:51
**中文**
在过这种虚拟生活。你拿着手机，看朋友在做什么，但你实际上没在做什么？你没有和朋友共度时光；你在盯着手机。即使在演唱会上，你也拿着手机；你甚至不在演唱会里，只是在拍摄屏幕上的内容。这有点反直觉，因为社交媒体声称连接人们。
**English / Original**
sort of living this virtual life. You're holding your phone, and you're looking at what your friends are doing, but guess what you're not actually doing? You're not spending time with your friends. You're spending time staring at your phone. Even you're at the concert, you're holding your phone. You're not even in the concert. You're just filming what's on It's a little counterintuitive cuz social media claims to connect people.
## 00:46:10
**中文**
但它实际上以一种有些虚假的方式做到这一点。AI 中，你在和 AI 说话，而不是和人说话；但它不取代你与人的互动，而能促成这种互动。>> 我的感觉是，未必工作本身会完全消失或改变，而是我们寻找一个人来做某项工作时所看重的品质会改变。好。举例说，想想医生。
**English / Original**
But it actually does it in sort of a fake way. AI, you're talking to the AI, you're not talking to a person, but in a but but it doesn't substitute for your interaction with people. It can enable your interaction with people. >> And my feeling is that it's not even necessarily that the jobs themselves will completely go away or change, but the qualities that we look for in people to do a given job will change. Okay. So, the example that I point to is if you think about a doctor.
## 00:46:39
**中文**
今天你去看医生，可能想找最聪明、最好的医生。我们说：“看，我胃痛，告诉我得了什么病。”>> 谁是这方面的专家？告诉我得了什么病。AI 会变得非常擅长做这件事。今天我们重视医生是优秀诊断者，却不一定总重视他们有良好的床边态度。>> 对。在一个 AI 和医生一样擅长诊断你的世界里，人们仍会想要医生，只是希望医生为他们做不同的事。对。[清嗓子] AI 无法亲自检查你，也不能说：“嘿，你今天看起来很低落。最近……最近……
**English / Original**
When you go to the doctor today, you probably want to go to the smartest, best doctor. We say, "Look, I have a stomach ache. Tell me what's wrong with me." >> in that? >> Who's the specialist? Tell me what's wrong with me. And AIs are going to get really good at being able to do that. Today, we prize doctors for being good diagnosticians, but we don't necessarily always prize them for having a good bedside >> Right. In a world where AI is as good at diagnosing you as a doctor, people are still going to want a doctor. They're just going to want them to do different things for them. Right? An [clears throat] AI can't physically examine you. It can't say, "Hey, you look really down today. How have How
## 00:47:14
**中文**
你的化疗进行得怎么样？”
**English / Original**
have your chemo treatments been going?"
## 00:47:16
**中文**
>> 把手放在你身上。>> 触摸你。而且有很多令人信服的证据表明，当患者与医生有良好的个人关系时，临床结果会更好。>> 当他们喜欢自己的医生时。>> 当医生确实把手放在他们身上、触摸他们、与他们沟通时。对。顺便说，医生还要有足够时间去思考、去共情。我认为那就是工作变化的美好世界，对吧？
**English / Original**
>> its hands on you. >> lay its hands on you. And And there's so much compelling evidence that patients have better clinical outcomes when they have a good personal relationship with their doctor. >> When they like their doctor. >> doctors actually lay their hands on them and touch them and communicate with them. Yes. And by the way, have enough time to to think through and to empathize. And I think that is the good world of job changes, right?
## 00:47:40
**中文**
>> 说：“我没时间去逐个——>> 我不能触摸病人。我没时间，因为我在看数千名患者。>> 文书工作，而且我的病人负荷太大。”但如果你有一种工具能与医生协同诊断，医生说：“你知道，让我和这个工具谈谈。顺便说，我不必花那么多时间跑所有医学检查、做这个做那个；我要把时间花在作为一个人建立关系上。”我认为那将会真的——我认为那是一个更好的世界。
**English / Original**
>> say, "I don't have time to go around >> I can't lay my hands on people. I don't have time. Cuz I'm seeing thousands of patients. >> the clerical work. And I'm And I have a too big of a patient caseload. But if you have a tool that's able to diagnose things in concert with a doctor, where the doctor says, "You know, let me talk to this tool. And by the way, I'm not going to be spending as much time running all the medical tests and doing this and that. I'm going to be spending time relating to as a human being. I think that is going to be really I think that's a better world.
## 00:48:05
**中文**
>> 再说一遍，你的职位未必会消失，但这些职位需要你做的事会改变。对，我个人相信——>> 会有一种转变。对。>> 当然会，因为这就是我们人类所做的：我们在进化。>> 对。>> 进化到下一层级。>> 我还想说，我个人认为知识就是力量；令我担心的是，哪些人觉得使用 AI 自在、哪些人不自在，存在人口统计学差异。
**English / Original**
>> again. Your positions may not go away, but what you're needed to do in those positions is going to change. Yes, and I personally believe >> to be a shift. Yes. >> And of course there is cuz that's what we're doing human beings. We're evolving. >> Yes. >> Evolving to the next level. >> I would also just say I personally think knowledge is power and something that worries me is there are there are demographic differences in who feels comfortable using AI and who does not.
## 00:48:34
**中文**
女性使用 AI 的频率只有男性的一小部分。我认为 AI 在某些方面是我们拉平竞争环境的机会，但这要求人们参与。这不意味着“嘿，你必须来付我们很多钱并注册”。只要觉得自在、熟练。不要害怕技术，因为你越了解、越理解它，就越能掌握信息，更有效地使用自己的声音。
**English / Original**
Women use AI a tiny fraction of the time compared to men and I think you know AI is an opportunity for us to level the playing field in some ways, but it requires people to be engaged. That doesn't mean hey, you have to come pay us all this money and sign up. Just be comfortable, fluent. Don't be afraid of the technology because the more you know about it, the more you understand it the better informed you are going to be to use your voice effectively.
## 00:48:58
**中文**
>> 它已经在这里了。你身处其中，如果你要继续生活，就会生活在这个世界里；它已经是社会的一部分了。它不会消失，就像火车或蒸汽机不会消失一样。你知道，我把它看成互联网，对吧？每个人都有某个家长说“我不会上网”。那是不可能的，对吧？现在每个人都必须以某种形式上网，我认为人工智能只是其下一次实例化。所以我想谈的一件事是：AI 一直在——它一直在自我改进。
**English / Original**
>> And it's here. You're in it and if you're going to continue to live, you're going to be in the world where It's like part of our society. It's not It's not going away anymore than the train or the steam engine is, you know. I think of it like the internet, right? Everybody had somebody's parent who said I'm not going to be online. It's impossible, right? Everybody has to be on the internet now in some form and I think artificial intelligence is just the next instantiation of that. So one of the things I want to talk about is the fact that AI just keeps It's It just keeps improving on itself.
## 00:49:29
**中文**
我想那正是它被设计来做的；有一个新的 AI 模型叫 Mythos。Mythos，对。那么它就像是最聪明中的最聪明。用简单的话告诉我们，Mythos 是什么，它能做、将会做什么。是的，这些模型的一般原则是，训练它们时，我们努力让它们在各方面越来越好：写代码、翻译语言、回答问题、阅读文档。嗯，Mythos 只是最新的——最新一次迭代。每隔几个月我们就推出一个更聪明的模型，Mythos 是最新的智能模型，而且——
**English / Original**
That's I guess what it's designed to do and there is a new AI model called Mythos. Mythos, yes. So that is like smarter than the smartest of the smartest. Tell us in a simple term what Mythos is and what it can and will be doing. Yeah, so you know the general principles of these models is when we train them, we try and you know, make them better and better at everything at writing code, at translating languages, and answering questions, at reading documents. Um and and Mythos was just kind of the latest um you know, was the latest iteration. Every few months we produce a smarter model and and Mythos was the latest smart model and you know,
## 00:50:11
**中文**
我们在启动 Mythos 前几个月有了一些发现，所以它是一次特别大的跃升。测试 Mythos 时——我们制作这些模型时会针对许多东西测试它们——我们会说：“哦，这个东西把法语翻译成英语有多好？或者它有多擅长，嗯，推荐股票投资组合？
**English / Original**
we we made some discoveries a few months before we started Mythos and so it was a particularly large jump. When we started testing Mythos, when we make these models, we test them for lots of things. We say, "Oh, how good is this thing at translating, you know, French to English? Or how good is this at um you know, um recommending a stock portfolio?
## 00:50:33
**中文**
或者它有多擅长，嗯，发现软件代码中的漏洞？”在最后一项上，我们发现 Mythos 有趣的一点：Mythos 在发现代码可能被利用和入侵的方法上，远胜人类软件工程师。你听说过针对医院或学校的勒索软件攻击吗？这种网络攻击一直都在发生。
**English / Original**
Or how good is it at um you know, finding bugs in software code?" And it was on that last one that we found something interesting for Mythos. Which is that Mythos was much better than human software engineers at finding ways that code could be exploited and broken into. You know, have you ever heard about like ransomware attacks on hospitals or schools? So, you know, these cyber attacks happen all the time.
## 00:51:03
**中文**
我们发现 Mythos——并不是因为我们将它设计成做这个，或设计成危险——结果非常擅长发起网络攻击和防御网络攻击。因此我们说：“哇，这东西有点像武器。我们大概不应该立刻把它给所有人。”
**English / Original**
And Mythos we found, not because we designed it to do this or because we designed it to be dangerous, turned out to be very good at both conducting cyber attacks and defending against cyber attacks. And so we said, "Wow, this thing kind of seems like a weapon." Um we we shouldn't you know, we probably shouldn't give it to everyone right away.
## 00:51:24
**中文**
于是我们想出的办法是：“我们会挑一些对互联网基础设施格外核心的公司，比如顶级银行，以及 Apple、Microsoft、Google 等顶级软件提供商，把它交给它们，让它们在模型被广泛提供、问题可能被利用之前修好一切。我们会在攻击者拿到它之前先交给防御者。”所以我们有个计划。现在已经把模型给了大概40家公司，
**English / Original**
And so the thing we came up with is we said, "We're going to take some companies that are particularly core to the infrastructure of the internet, right? Some of the top banks, some of the top um you know, software providers like Apple or like Microsoft or like Google, and you know, hand it to them and let them fix everything before it becomes widely available and things can be broken. Um so we would kind of give it to the defenders before the you know before the attackers got a hold of it. And so we had a program. We've we've given the model to you know, I think it's something like 40 companies now and
## 00:52:05
**中文**
它们正忙着找漏洞。几天前我们刚发了一篇帖子：一家知名公司用 Mythos 一周发现并修复的漏洞，比它过去一年发现和修复的还多。所以这确实在改变事情。现在我们希望防御者能修好一切，让一切更顺畅、更难被入侵。我们希望勒索软件时代、间谍侵入你手机的时代，以及人们担忧的——
**English / Original**
they're you know, they're busy they're busily finding bugs. And you know, we just had a post a few days ago that one of the well-known companies found more bugs and fixed more bugs with Mythos in a week than uh they had for the last year. Uh and and and so we are you know, this is really changing things. Now our hope is the defenders can fix everything and everything gets more seamless, everything gets harder to break into. So our hope is the era of ransomware and you know, spies breaking into your phone and you know, People are worried about
## 00:52:44
**中文**
生物恐怖主义——人们应该担忧。所以我们的、我们的希望是，在今年年底时，许多这类问题已得到修复，我们比之前生活在更安全的世界。但与此同时，有一段危险时期：你拥有这类惊人能力，却未必想直接放任它流入世界。因此我们尝试在交给攻击者之前先交给防御者来管理它。谢谢你的解释。这是会让你
**English / Original**
bio-terrorism and should be. So our our yeah, our our our hope is that at the end of this say at the end of this year, we get to a point where all of these you know, many of these things have been fixed and we live in a more secure world than we did before. But in the meantime, you know, there's this dangerous period during which you have these these kind of incredible capabilities that you know, that you know, you don't want to just necessarily loose on the world. And so we're trying to we're trying to manage that by giving it to the defenders before we give it to the attackers. Thank you for that. Does is this is the kind of thing that keeps you
## 00:53:24
**中文**
夜不能寐的事吗？你睡得好吗？呃，我不能诚实地说自己睡得着。我希望能换种方式回答，但我得给你诚实答案：我并不总是睡得很好。我会说，回到我们刚才谈话的前面部分——因为你担心这些事。
**English / Original**
up at night? Do you sleep well? Uh I I you know, I cannot legitimately say that I sleep. I wish I could answer that question differently, but uh but you know, I got to I got to give you an honest answer here which is you know, I don't always sleep so well. I would I would say, you know, going back to the earlier part of the conversation we were having Because you're worried about these things.
## 00:53:44
**中文**
这个，还有一切；只是想把事情做对。这最让我担心。就是，尽管我们的意图如此，这一切都极其复杂。我们会不会搞砸？对。我的意思是答案是会，某个时候我们会搞砸什么。但大的事情我们能做对吗？
**English / Original**
This this and you know, just everything just wanting to get it right. That's the thing that worries me the most. Just like, you know, for all our intentions, all of this stuff is incredibly complex. Just are we going to screw up? Yeah. And and I mean the answer is yes. At some point we'll screw up something. But but like are we going to get the big stuff right?
## 00:54:02
**中文**
对。对。而且因为你们本质上都是有原则的人。>> 是的。所以我觉得这确实很不同：当你本质上是有原则的人时。不是每个人都是。每个领域都有很多自我，但特别是当人们赚着数以十亿、百亿计的钱，还有与中国竞赛等等时，很容易忘记真正重要的是什么、对公众重要的是什么。我想知道你们做了什么，来让自我不至于失控。你知道，我——
**English / Original**
Yeah. Yeah. And also because you all are fundamentally principled people. >> Yes. So I think that actually makes a big difference when you're fundamentally principled people. Uh not everybody is. And uh there's a lot of egos in in every field. But I think particularly when people are making so many billions and billions and billions of dollars and there's the race to beat China and all of that that it's easily to lose sight of what's what really matters and what really matters to the public. I'm wondering what you all have done to sort of keep your egos in check. You know, I
## 00:54:43
**中文**
我想对我们来说，这始终回到使命，对吧？我们最初为何做这个？为什么离开 OpenAI 创办 Anthropic？因为我们想确保 AI 对每个人都能发展顺利。这就是我们为什么是公益公司、为什么作出80%承诺、为什么作出所有这些艰难决定。今天我在我们内部的 Slack 消息应用里。我经常与公司交流。我的一件事是，我们现在有3500人；6个月前大约1200人。某次，因为我鼓励这种做法，有人在我的——
**English / Original**
think it again, to us it always comes back to the mission, right? Why we did this in the first place. Why did we leave Open AI to start Anthropic? Because we wanted to make sure that AI goes well for everybody, right? That's why we're a public benefit corporation. That's why we took the 80% pledge. That's why we've made all of these difficult decisions. You know, I was in our internal like our internal Slack messaging app today. You know, I talk to the company a lot. And one of the things I was saying is, you know, we're 3,500 people now. We we were, you know, like 1,200 people, you know, like 6 months ago. At one point, because because I encourage this, someone posted in my
## 00:55:23
**中文**
嗯，我的个人 Slack 频道里——通常只有我在里面发东西——我刚在全员会议面向公司说过一些话，我想说得不太对。有人在我频道写道：“这话说得相当糟，会让所有人感觉不好；你不该这样说。”
**English / Original**
like, you know, like my personal Slack channel, you know, I I had done an all-hands in front of the company and like, you know, said something and I think I said it in not quite the right way. And someone someone wrote in my channel. Usually it's only me who writes things in my channel. Someone wrote in my channel, "This was a pretty bad thing to say and it like makes everyone feel bad and like you know this this like you shouldn't have said it this way.
## 00:55:43
**中文**
当然，读到时最初反应总是“天啊，我感觉自己被攻击了”。但你停一下，两分钟后我想：“我真高兴人们会说这个。”然后我写了类似“我真高兴你愿意说这个”的话。随后人们注意到这点，很多人给我发消息，说：“我不知道可以这样做。我不知道你可以直接反驳一家3000人公司的 CEO。”但你必须、必须、必须这么做。你知道这为什么是个有力例子吗？
**English / Original**
And of course you know when I read it I you know the initial reaction is always like oh man like I feel like I'm being attacked. But but but like you take a beat and then and then two minutes later I'm like I'm so glad people are saying this and then you know I wrote something that was like I'm so glad you're what you're like willing to say that you know and and then people noticed this like many people messaged me where I was like I didn't know you could do that. I didn't know you could just contradict the CEO of a you know 3,000 person but it's you know you you got to you've got to you've got to. You know why that's a powerful example?
## 00:56:14
**中文**
大约在80年代末，我想，我第一次见到 Henry Kravis。他对我说：要知道，你积累的钱越多，听到真话的可能性就越小。对。因为他说，有钱的男人——我猜他也把有钱的女人包括在内——有钱的男人很少听到真话。
**English / Original**
Early early on like in the late 80s I think I I met Henry Kravis for the first time and he was saying to me be aware that the more money you accumulate the less chance that you're ever going to hear the truth. Yes. Because he said rich men and I guess he also meant rich women too but he goes rich men rarely hear the truth.
## 00:56:33
**中文**
>> 对。对。我还想补充，我认为你在个人生活中的所作所为也很重要。工作中的所作所为是一回事；但我基本上还是有着从高中和大学时就认识的同一批朋友。猜猜看，他们毫不费力地对我坦诚，毫不费力地告诉我真话，也毫不费力地反对 Anthropic 作出的公开决定，对吧？过去五年发生了很多变化，但对我个人来说，我并不觉得工作之外改变了多少；我认为这是一项重要的、让人脚踏实地的特质。我觉得掌管这些大公司的人有时会变得痴迷……
**English / Original**
>> Yes. Yeah. I I I'll also just add I think what you do in your personal life matters too there's what you do at work but I basically have the same friends I've had since like high school and college and guess what they have no trouble being honest with me and they have no trouble telling me the the truth and they have no trouble disagreeing with public decisions that Anthropic has made right? So I think the last five years have changed a lot but I think for me personally I don't really feel like that much has changed outside of work and I think that's an important grounding characteristic. I think people who tend to be in charge of these big companies sometimes it's like they become obsessed
## 00:57:08
**中文**
只痴迷于自己的工作，以至于不再是一个全面发展的人。我们创办 Anthropic 时，最初真正创办公司的七八个人里，只有一人有一个孩子；现在一共有11个孩子。我认为，我们都选择成为父母，[清嗓子] 都希望在工作之外过充实、真实的生活；这会带来一种脚踏实地、谦逊和低自我的状态。再说一次，没有人比使命更重要。>> 所以，你们传达得非常清楚的是：作为兄妹，你们创办了这家公司；它比你们想象的更大；你们一直想通过为世界行善来产生影响；而你们……
**English / Original**
just with their work they're not well-rounded person and I think there's something when we started Anthropic of like the first you know of the seven or eight folks who who really started the company only one of them had one kid and now there's 11 kids and I think there's something about the fact that we all chose to be parents [clears throat] we all want fulfilling real lives outside of work. I think that just brings a sort of groundedness humility low ego, and just again, like no one is bigger than the mission. So So, what comes through really clearly is that sister and brother, you started this, it's bigger than you ever imagined, you always wanted to make an impact in doing good for the world, and you
## 00:57:49
**中文**
即使在极其困难的时候，也坚守了自己的原则。是什么让你们有希望把这件事做对？>> 我想，诚实的答案是，我们从来都不能完全确定。我们相信自己正在尽最大努力，而且非常努力。只是这些决定很复杂，对吧？回到 Mythos：是更快地把它交给更多人，还是更慢地交给更少的人？
**English / Original**
stuck to your principles even when it was really difficult. What gives you the hope that you will get this right? So, we're never quite sure, I think, is is the honest answer. Like, we believe we're trying our best and trying very hard. Um it's just the decisions are complicated, right? If we go back to Mythos, it's like, do we give it to more people faster or less people slower?
## 00:58:14
**中文**
比如，我们该信任谁？所以，除了要有正确的原则——我相信我们确实有——还必须把所有细节做对。>> 对。嗯，所以我认为我们每天都在担心这件事；而我们每天都为此担心，也许正是最让我们抱有希望的地方：我们对它如此警惕。但这毫无保证。我们犯过错误，也会继续犯错误；那是必然的，对吧？
**English / Original**
Like, who do we trust? And so, it's about getting all the details right in addition to just having the right principles, which which I believe we do. >> Yeah. Um And And so, I think we worry about it every day, and the fact that we worry about it every day is maybe the thing that most gives us hope that like, well, that we're so paranoid about it, but it's it's it's no guarantee. And we've made mistakes, we're going to continue to make mistakes. Like, you know, we're that that that's that's a given, right?
## 00:58:41
**中文**
>> 硅谷还有其他人也把“把事情做对”视为自身使命的一部分吗？你感觉其他人在这项使命上支持你们吗？>> 也许很难指出某一家特定公司，但有时我会非常感动：无论你去某个活动演讲，还是另一家公司请你去对他们讲话，听众中总会有人事后走过来，或者提问，说些类似“谢谢你们以这种方式做事”的话。>> 对。>> 就是，谢谢你们努力把事情做对。
**English / Original**
>> Are there other people in Silicon Valley who also have it a part of their mission to get it right? Do you feel supported in that mission by others? It's hard to point to maybe like a particular company, but I think I am very touched by sometimes, you know, whatever you go and talk in an event, or another company wants you to come speak to them, and somebody in the audience, you know, comes up to you afterwards or ask a question, and they say something like, "Thank you guys for the way that you do things." Yeah. Like, thank you for trying to get it right.
## 00:59:14
**中文**
会有这样一种感觉。你知道，我认为我们关系中很棒的一点是，Dario 和我也会彼此问责，对吧？所以，当我们反复讨论“这是正确的决定吗？这是对公司而言正确的决定吗？这符合我们的价值观吗？”时，我们拥有彼此；完整的联合创始团队也仍然都在 Anthropic。我认为我们还聘请了一群了不起的人，他们同样是为使命而来。这几乎形成了一种集体问责。如果再加上 Dario 提到的内部文化——任何人都可以不同意我们，对吧？是的，这很难做到，但有很多渠道……
**English / Original**
There's this kind of sense that, you know, I think um I think something that's great about our relationship is Dario and I I also think we hold each other accountable, right? And so, when, you know, we go back and forth on, "Is this a right Is this the right decision for the company is this in keeping with our values we have each other we have the whole co-founding team is still at Anthropic. I think we've also hired an amazing set of people who are also there for the mission. There's almost a kind of group accountability and if you pair that with like Dario mentioned this culture internally of anybody can disagree with us right and yes that's hard to do but there's a lot of forums
## 00:59:48
**中文**
会鼓励他们这样做：他们的经理可以这样做，他们也可以匿名这样做。我认为所有这些特质都会提高这种可能性：如果我们开始偏离道路，至少我们会知道。>> 好。你们想让我们公众知道什么？在 AI 旅程走到此刻时，你们最希望我们知道的是什么？
**English / Original**
in which they're encouraged to do that their manager can do it they can do it anonymously. I think all of those qualities make it more likely that that if we start to stray from the path we're at least going to know. Okay and you want to leave us the public knowing what? What is the most important thing you want us to know in this moment in time where we are in our AI journey?
## 01:00:11
**中文**
你知道，世界正在发生一件极其重大的事。这不是最新的技术，不是加密货币，不是移动技术，也不是最新的小玩意或流行词。人类正在经历一件极其重大的事。虽然这项技术是由少数人建造的，但我们必须让它为所有人服务，也必须确保我们所有人共同作出正确的决定，并且正视……
**English / Original**
You know there's there's something really big happening to the world here. This isn't the this isn't the you know this isn't the latest technology this isn't crypto this isn't mobile this you know this this isn't like the latest you know gadget or buzzword. Something really big is happening to humanity here. While the technology is being built by a small number of people we we need to make it work for everyone and we need to make sure that between all of us we make the right decisions and and we reckon with
## 01:00:49
**中文**
我们日常生活的变化、工作的变化，以及政府和公民自由的变化。如果我们把这件事做对，所有这些都可能朝积极的方向改变，都可能比我们接手时变得更好。我们可能拥有一个完美世界：许许多多疾病被治愈，人们的生活更快乐、更有意义。但如果我们搞错了，很容易想象事情完全不会朝那个方向发展。这取决于我们所有人。我们当中有些人处在更核心的位置，但我认为那也是我们需要改变的事。你知道，这并不容易，也不是靠某一件事就能做到；它会是一系列……
**English / Original**
changes to our daily lives changes to our jobs changes to you know government and civil liberties and if we do this the right way all of those things could change in a positive way all of those things could be better than we left them we could have the perfect world where you know many many diseases are cured people's lives are more joyful and meaningful but you know if we get it wrong it's easy to imagine things not going that way at all and you know it's up to all of us Some of us are in a more central position, but that's something I think we need to change as well. And, you know, it's not easy. It's not any one thing. It's going to be a bunch of
## 01:01:31
**中文**
不同的事情。
**English / Original**
different things.
## 01:01:32
**中文**
我大概会像 Dario 一样，以“光明与阴影”这个概念留给大家：人工智能的潜在益处极其巨大。我们写过它们，也试着公开谈过；我们相信它们是真实的。同时，风险也是真实的。我们不是在炒作积极面，也不是在炒作消极面。
**English / Original**
I think I would probably leave people very similar to what Dario said with this with this concept of of light and shade. That the potential benefits from artificial intelligence are are vast. Um we've written about them. We've tried to talk about them publicly. We believe they're real. Um and also the risks are are also real, right? We're not trying to hype up the the positives or hype up the negatives.
## 01:01:57
**中文**
我认为两者都是真的。它很复杂，但我们必须同时容纳两件事。呼应 Dario，这不是科技公司能独自完成的事，也不该如此。它需要比当前从事人工智能工作的群体大得多的人群合作。第一步必须是：不要害怕它。了解它，投入其中，提出问题，保持批判性。
**English / Original**
I think they're both true. It's complex, but we have to hold two things at once. And I think just echoing Dario, this is not something that technology companies can do by ourselves. Nor should it be. It's something that's going to take partnership from a much bigger group of people than is currently working on artificial intelligence. And I think the first step there has to be don't don't be afraid of it. Learn about it. Lean into it. Ask questions. Be critical.
## 01:02:26
**中文**
正如我们对员工说的：只有扩大参与对话的人群，我们才有机会把它做对。我会问所有嘉宾这个问题，尤其想问你们两位：你认为过得好的一生的意义是什么？AI 将如何促进那种过得好的一生？但对你、你的家庭和孩子而言，过得好的一生意味着什么？我想对我而言，过得好的一生是你拥有能动性和自主性。
**English / Original**
Just like we say to our staff, right? We are only going to have a chance of getting this right if we expand the circle of people that are in the conversation. I ask this of all my guests and particularly I'm interested from the two of you. And what do you think is the meaning of a well-lived life? And how AI is going to contribute to that well-lived life. But what what will be the meaning of a well-lived life for you, your family, and your children? I think for me a well-lived life is one where you have agency and autonomy.
## 01:03:06
**中文**
你坐在驾驶座上，并用这种自主性服务于成为最好的自己。我认为，对你、家人、孩子、更广泛社区以及世界而言，最好的自己都是如此。我想，自我反思、从错误中学习、克服挣扎，并在另一边走出来时想着：“我更了解自己，我喜欢自己，我想帮助别人。”对我而言，这就是过得好且善于反思的一生的最佳定义。正如我谈到的，
**English / Original**
You're in the driver seat and you're using that in the service of being the best version of yourself. And I think the best version of yourself for you, for your family, for your kids, for your broader community, and I think for the world. I think um the ability to be self-reflective, to learn from mistakes, to overcome struggles, and to come out the other side thinking, "You know, I know more about who I am, I like who I am, and I want to help other people." I think that to me is the best definition of a well-lived, introspective life. And like I talked
## 01:03:49
**中文**
我认为有一种世界，AI 会损害我认为是过得好的人生标志的如此多事物；也有一种世界，它会使这些事成为可能，让更多人能拥有意义和价值，能自我反省，成为最好的自己，彼此好好相待。我希望我们要建造的是那个世界。
**English / Original**
about, I think I think there's a world where AI could damage so many of the things that I think are the hallmarks of a well-lived life. And I think there's a world where it could enable those, and it could allow a lot more people to be able to have meaning and value, and to self-introspect, to be the best versions of ourselves, to show up for each other well. And I hope that's the world that we're going to build towards.
## 01:04:19
**中文**
我只是换种说法说和 Daniela 一样的话。我觉得很简单。你知道，始终以尊严和原则行事。当你回首时，你不该为自己做过的事感到羞愧，或说“我希望当时做了另一件事”。当然你会犯错，但你已经把自己能付出的每一分努力，都投入到努力把事情做对。我们对个人有责任，对我的联合创始人、我生命中所有其他人有责任；但也对
**English / Original**
I'd just say the same thing as Daniela in different words. I think it's pretty pretty simple. Um you know, I think you know, just operate always with a sense of dignity and principle. Like, you know, when you look back and you're like, you know, don't you shouldn't when you look back be ashamed of what you did or say, you know, I you know, I wish I'd done this this other thing. Of course you'll make mistakes, but you know, you were you were putting every iota of effort you could into into, you know, into um trying to get it right. Um you know, I think we have duties both to individuals, you know, to to to to my to my co-founders, to all the other people in my life, but you know, also to, you
## 01:04:56
**中文**
我们技术的用户、对这个国家和世界的每一个公民有责任。因此我认为我们对所有这些人都有必须履行的责任。要确保最终它是朝某个目的前进，朝我们试图在世界实现的一致愿景前进；也许它不会发生，也许我们搞砸，也许犯下可怕错误，但只要愿景清晰，并尽可能以正直去追求它。当然你也想要结果，但我认为，如果做到这些
**English / Original**
know, the the users of our technology, to, you know, everyone else in the country and world as citizens. So, you know, I think we have duties to all those people that would that we have to that we have to attend to. Uh and, you know, making sure that uh you know, at the end of it it was directed at some purpose some consistent view of what we were trying to accomplish in the world that the vision we were trying to make happen maybe it doesn't happen maybe we screw it up maybe we make terrible mistakes but you know just just having the having the vision be clear and and and trying to to pursue it with with integrity if you if you can do that of course you want the outcome too but it I think if doing that
## 01:05:38
**中文**
是你所能控制的一切，对吧？而且归根结底，它比结果更重要。谢谢你们推动我们向前。你们——这正是你们小时候所设想的。>> 这很奇怪，但我们确实在做。[笑声] 对，确实如此。谢谢，谢谢 Dario 和 Daniela。你们给了我们很多思考。大家一路顺遂，一路顺遂。
**English / Original**
is all you can control right and and more important ultimately than the outcome. Thank you for growing us forward. You you that's what you're doing. You're doing exactly what you envisioned as little kids. >> It it is very strange but we are. [laughter] Yes it is. Thank you thank you Dario and Daniela. You've given us a lot to think about. Go well everybody go well.
## 01:06:00
**中文**
你可以在 YouTube 订阅奥普拉播客，并在 Spotify、Apple Podcasts 或任何你收听播客的平台关注我们。下周见。谢谢大家。
**English / Original**
You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks everybody.